Discussion in 'Basic Training Principles and Methods' started by pwrhngry, Aug 29, 2005.
Ha, nice work though fausto. Those articles were very interesting.
Well, I have just received another copy with the latest research:
Here it is for your use and review:
Fausto, then the first thing you need to do is STOP reading Paul Cribbs crap.
Yes, he is a great writer, yes he uses studies and cites them, but he twists everything to fit his needs and promote AST's VP2 Whey powder, which isn't anything special.
Even the study Tipton did, the one he cites, they make this statement,
Also the spin he puts on the 400% increase in FSR isn't the same as adding CSA to muscle tissue. Increases in FSR are seen under varying conditions and not all cause hypertrophy. So his statement about putting on "slabs" of muscle if you follow his "bracketed formula" is rather misleading.
Now I'm not saying Pre and Post Protein isn't important, on the contrary I feel very strongly that it is. I'm just saying beware of Science used for Marketing Hype.
And to their credit AST is very very good at this.
I have 6 very good studies on my site, 4 of which are Full Text, that can help you understand Amino Acids and how they relate to PS rates.
You can view them at the Amino Acid Page
Thanks, I forgot to add that I also thought that there was a little too much emphasis on their products which I really don't find when Bryan posts articles, but man...that is why I posted it, I just want some real insight and who better top give me that than the experts like you?
I will sure read the article you mention...soon...right now I am in the middle of a regulatory affairs war...specific because of the micro department....he, he, he...I guess its a good thing that I built my back rather well now I can take the punches LOL
I have no problems being guided in the right direction, in fact since I have joined this site, I have had nothing but good guidance, that is why I am still here!
Shot as we say here in south africa..."shot" for the insight.
Yeah, Fausto old boy, Cribbs is terrible!
Improve your workout by 400%?! Are you kidding me?! And conveniently, using all their branded products, well, what a surprise. I took the article you posted, read it, and was amazed how much he kept on saying "glug down our drinks!" then didn't even hint one bit that you actually have to consider how much is actually related to hypertrophy, or does cause hypertrophy, or even mentions that pre and post workout nutrition is more for recovery. In the end, it's still about calories at the end of the day that will play the biggest role in "putting on slabs of muscle", not chugging down that crap he sells while you are in the "window". Actually, I'm amazed he didn't say "guys, the window of opportunity lasts 12, yes 12, hours, so chug down a barrel of VP2 protein all day, and you'll be the Hulk in no time!" Timing of protein intake is also a factor, but hyping it all up to simply promote that crap he sells... terrible!
Actually, I still can't get over... "so what you do is, drink down our VP2 crap, right after, and a few hours after that." That's science for you.
Who is going to debate more on protein uptake or better absorbance after exercise?
Hey Fausto, dude, that wasn't personal, not even in the very least. I wasn't bitching about you, I was just ranting about marketing tactics that really tick me off. I'm pretty sure you can out-write that Cribbs dude ten times out of ten tries. And let's not even get into proper training methods. I'm sure you'd kick his butt all day.
Fausto, and J., if I have only picked up one thing in all the hours of pouring over all the nutrition, and suppliment research it is this. While a reasonable, healthy diet, and consistent use of some time tested suppliments (whey,EFA,creatine),to a lesser degree,are imperitive to truly maximize ones gains, there is no body in a bottle! A lot of these claims remind me of the countless "ab miracle machines". You've got at least 2 dozen different contraptions that are all "the way" to "sleek, sexy sixpack abs". If one in ten truly even began to live up to their claims, the entire world would look like a casting call for baywatch! The truth is the only apparatus truly effective for improving the visibility of ones abdominus obliques is the fork, and its proper use! EVERYONE HAS "ABS" and if they drop their body fat level to <10 or 11% they would be visible.
Well same thing, I think with muscle building. If you work hard, stimulate your muscles, and consume more calories than you burn, you will get bigger muscles. Dont get me wrong, I religiously eat my whey, and my creatine, and EFAs. Also, I keep my diet neurotically clean, but I think that they are more akin to the grease than the bearings. Work is what builds muscle. If, no, when, I find out the exact amount I need to do so, and quit overdoing it so dang much, I will be on the fast track to building the physique I quest for.
Anyway that's just my take on it,simple I know, and my thirst for knowledge as to the most effective methods is ,as ever, unquenchable, so for now and hopefully forever, I remain POWERHUNGRY!
Sorry, I am just having a bad day, and the boss just called me before I sent the last message to bitch about something!
I am not ticked off, dude! I really think Good ol' Cribbs (poor old devil) LOL is on to something and I am sure one of you has some write up about it, I know there is a important window of opportunity that we can take advantage of but what I need is some serious pointers with factual evidence.
Unfortunately I am somewhat inocent sometimes too much for my own good and I did not necessarily read the Cribbs articles in fine detail as I am at work so there are more important things
I do get irritated and agree that he rather promotes his VP crap or not (haven't tried it) a lot.
It sounds or reads, latest research yada,yada,yada, window of opp...........take VP2.....take MHS creatine.....more VP2....a good laugh, and yah, I should have been more careful, sorry guys
"Locking out" is your roadblock? Have you been reading about Weider principles or something?
People have been 'locking out' movements since weight training was invented. We take a few breaths between reps of heavy squats. Same for bench and what have you. This is normal.
Your problem is right here, as stated:
"My bodyfat is stoopid low, and I couldnt figure out what the problem is!"
You're not eating enough. No amount of smart training will ever, ever compensate for this. Give up the beach homo abs and grab the knife and fork.
Oh, come on, that's a bit too harsh. Let the kid keep his abs.
I'm sure he can make some gains, or push his bodyfat up to 8% and still keep his abs. Finding his true maintenance level, then eating just a few hundred calories above it may do the trick.
Well, no need to get lost so much in too many details. Decent pre workout, decent post workout. The rest of the day, just eat right. At the end of the day, it's a matter of calories. During your training, it's about timing your protein intake.
Time your protein intake before and after workout very well. You don't really need so much protein in one day - even 1 per kg of bodyweight will do, a lot of it should be timed to be pre workout and post workout (that means of course immediately before and after, not 4 hours after or somethign like that). A lot of this is actually found in the HST FAQ E-book already, you can just refer again to some things Bryan noted.
Well, don't sweat your boss. Most bosses are really designed to be hard-asses. There are very few exceptions, like our boss here Bryan who pretty much comes off as a pretty nice guy. Wish we could say that for everybody.
You guys sound like a bunch of parents debating the kids fate! Quite hilarious though enjoyable!
That is? Serious? So this Cribbs guy is way out of line, can one effectively market science, should one?
So there is a window of opportunity and its before (how long?) deads could get it all out before you know it!
and after - within 1/2 hour right?
Shot man...it is just that I overdid it at first with the protein and (also stopped smoking, this could have helped) before I knew it I was 16% or so BF, scary ####...so I had to cut down quick!
Got some lean muscle along with it, but I started doing some moderate cardio and reduced the MRP to once daily. This is why I wanted to be sure.
No, Cribbs isn't way out of line and what he is saying about anabolic window is correct, he just overemphasises his VP2 product and tends to twist every study written on protein to his advantage.
Timing is critical, in a Study by Tipton, following the one about post workout, they looked at Pre training ingestion. They found that pre training increased PS even more than post and even more importantly this was additive to the effect off working out. Other studies by Wolfe, Wolf, Tipton, Rennie supports the intake of AA pre and post, so timing is very imoprtant and in my OPINION only, more important than worrying taking in 1-2g/lb of protein.
I personally feel that you can grow with .7-1g per pound (happy Aaron?) of protein (depending on energy needs and macro content) but it would be to anyones advantage to use the anabolic window pre and post training to get the very most out of protein.
That is what I wanted to know, his writting seemed pretty decent but some claims were rather huge, and well the VP 2 and his products that is another story
So, basically it is of extreme importance to take pre and post w/o MRP's, os as to use the protein to its best!
That is basically all I wanted to confirm, which proves I was rather off track and thus the reason I bloated so quick
Getting back on track but still extremelly unhappy with the waist, the SOB just does not want to come down.
I am at 13.5 % at the moment.
Mikeynov, Thanks for the take on my original question. I appreciate your input and it seems like the general concencus is that the 25-2800 Im eating a day is not enough. Which kind of puts me above the HST guidlines as far as requirements already,so I guess I have a pretty high bmr,just gonna have to figure out how much I need through trial and error I guess. Man,2500 seems like a lot of food when eating clean already.
On a side note, the visibility of my abs is more an indicator of a clean diet and hard training than of my sexuality. I can assure you,as my two daughters are evidence of, I am not a "beach homo". I do, however want to put on quality, hard weight rather than just pack on pounds of "dirty" bulk that I will just have to cut down again later. Like Daddy always said "build it right the first time"
It does appear however that putting on some mas IS gonna require my b.f. to come up to some degree, Its just too hard to grow at this level of leanness.
Right now Im in week 3 of a Bill Starr 5x5, and Ive gained about 10 pounds on the three core lifts so far,but no size, which is OK because Im using this strength cycle to get a good basis for starting an HST program next. I just cant decide whether to switch over to the single factor version of the 5x5 (as Aaron F at first suggested) now or to complete the dual factor cycle by going into the deload phase after this week.
As always, thanks guys.
A "clean" diet is not what lets you keep your abs. It's the amount of calories take in. In the end, a "clean" versus a "dirty" bulk won't make very much difference in how much fat you gain. Of course clean dieting does have health advantages, but it doesn't matter how clean you eat - if you overeat, you will still gain fat. If you don't enough, you still won't gain muscle.
Totentanz, true enough bro, I couldnt agree more,too much healthy food is still, by definition, too much. Look at some Samoans. Their diet is primarily comprizes of fresh seafood and fruit,and vegetables, but some of the largest guys on earth are soamoans. While it takes a lot more bulk of food to overconsume nutrient dense, as opposed to the typical modern empty calorie dense diet. I once had a chemistry teacher that offered an A in the entire semester if you could just disprove the statement "Any thing in excess, is bad for you" well no one ever got the free ride because, by definition "in excess" means too much. Heck look at a grizzly bear, he builds up a 7-9 month supply of blubber for hibernation every year eating primarily SALMON!
I guess a better way to have phrased it would have been to have said that hard training, and a reasonable diet are the contributing factors to my abs visibility.
In any event, as I said hes undoubdtably right to the dgree that in order to build any mass I will have to gain bodyfat. At this level there is just not any "give" to grow on. Ive slowly and steadily upped my intake for the last 2 months and still am not gaining, so Ive got to continue to bump it up, or simply accept where I am and give up on progression. Ill take the former over the latter. I am just "easing" into higher and higher intake so as not to overshoot the mark.
and they also showed a drink 1hr post training worked better than straight after...
well thats if your tmag..
Rennie supports the intake of AA pre and post, so timing is very imoprtant and in my OPINION only, more important than worrying taking in 1-2g/lb of protein
so you r saying that 1-2 lbs not important as post or pre?and what dose of protein and carbohydrate you propose for pre and post per kg for a bodybuilder?
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