Vinegar for Better Glycogen Repletion?

Discussion in 'Anything and Everything about dietary supplements' started by Jon Stark, Aug 12, 2002.

  1. restless

    restless New Member

    Alright, I for one am already using vinegar pre/post workout and yesterday I bought one of those PH tests for aquariums to check my urine's PH.

    Yesterday night it was low, I don't know how low because it was out of the range of this PH test (6.2-7.4). I took the 20 grs of a mix of potassium and sodium citrate, calcium carbonate and magnesium cloride, which was what I could get. At 3 AM I woke up to take a piss and tested and it was at over the 7.4 mark. In the morning I was around the 7.0 mark, which I suppose should be good. Wasn't expecting the effect to be so quick.

    Not sure what to expect from this but will post a report latter in the week or the next one.
  2. Reven

    Reven New Member

    Restless, I was just wondering where you were able to find all your buffers? I'm hoping on using buffering agents and vinegar post workout soon but the only one I know where to locate is baking soda.
    I don't think calcium carbonate works as a buffer, Neutralize Acid to Enhance Performance they used it here as a placebo.
  3. restless

    restless New Member

    I just went to the local pharmacy and asked the guy for citrates in powder form, he had the ones I bought and they came out at 3€ each 100 gr, which I thought was very cheap. I could have ordered the magnesium and calcium citrates but I would have to buy one kilogram of each and plus all the shipping expenses as it would have to be an import so I figured I'd look aroundd some more and use this ones for now.

    Most pharmacies won't sell the powdered stuff to the public as it's intended to be used in their preparations I guess so you'll probably have to ask around.

    Well, like I said It was what I could get at this point. One of the reasons I took it it's because I seem to remember that the ratio between some of these minerals also seems to be important (for other purposes), especially calcium and magnesium I think. I had muscle cramps for some time due to an excessive magnesium intake.

    Anyway, Dr Torsten mentioned the use of calcium carbonate in that thread Blade mentioned. It doesn't come in this list though:

    List of substances (other than flavouring agents) by functional clas

  4. restless

    restless New Member

    "Calcium carbonate (Tums) will bind oxalate in the intestines thereby reducing the oxalate excretion in the urine. It may also reduce the acidity of the urine. Both these effects of calcium carbonate in combination with the "General preventive measures" are effective measures in stone prevention. One Tums (500mg) four time per day is the recommended dose. It should be taken with food or later in the day when food is in the intestinal track (i.e. when there is food containing oxalate to bind). If taken on an empty stomach it may have a reverse effect by raising the calcium level in the urine.
    In crohn's disease or small intestinal resection Cholestyramine will bind the excess bile reducing the colonic absorption of oxalate.
    Pyridoxine (Vitamin B 6) will reduce the urinary excretion of oxalate.
    A dietary restriction of oxalate containing food is also helpful. High oxalate foods are, rhubarb, peanuts, chocolate, spinach, beets, strawberries, tomatoes and strongly brewed teas."

    Found this here:
  5. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Well, all this reading of the vinager things has gotten me interested.
    And also reading another post on another forum brought back a memory of a conversation I had with Jules (wheres he gone?) prior to the nutrition board dying I think)

    We were discussing the effect of eating normally all day, but havin the majority of carbs based around training. Now vinager/citrate would be a potential positive effect in terms of maximising glycogen stores before and after training...

    In terms of a quantity, I have found the following citrate rat experiment at least that showed 0.5g/kg citrate with 3.0g/kg glucose significantly increasing muscle and liver glycogen repletion.

    J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo) 1983 Feb;29(1):45-52

    Enhanced glycogen repletion in liver and skeletal muscle with citrate orally fed after exhaustive treadmill running and swimming.

    Saitoh S, Yoshitake Y, Suzuki M.

    it is older, but still interesting.
  6. This is a copy and paste from my post on the CEM board, concerning the topic of lactic acid accumulation under metabolic or alakaline conditions.

    "It seems to be that in metabolic acidosis the lactate accumulation is less than in the alkaline state, at least in this study:

    J Appl Physiol 1983 Jul;55(1 Pt 1):225-9

    Effects of pH on maximal power output and fatigue during short-term dynamic exercise.

    McCartney N, Heigenhauser GJ, Jones NL.

    Six healthy subjects performed four exercise studies in random order on separate days: a control study, metabolic acidosis induced by ammonium chloride, metabolic alkalosis induced by sodium bicarbonate, and respiratory acidosis induced by 5% CO2 inhalation. The subjects exerted maximal force on the pedals of a constant-velocity cycle ergometer at 100 rpm for 30 s; torque was measured and power calculated. Arterialized venous blood was sampled, and plasma lactate concentrations was measured immediately after and at 2-min intervals for 10 min following exercise. Although maximal peak power and total work, for the 30-s test, were lower in the two acidosis conditions, this effect was not statistically significant. Plasma lactate 30-s postexercise was lower in metabolic acidosis (2.8 +/- 1.6 mmol X 1(-1) (mean +/- SD) and respiratory acidosis (1.5 +/- 0.8 mmol X 1(-1) than in placebo conditions (5.9 +/- 3.3 mmol X 1(-1) and metabolic alkalosis 7.8 +/- 4.2 mmol X 1(-1). These differences were maintained but lessened during 10 min of recovery. In contrast to previous studies, which showed a marked reduction in endurance time during sustained heavy exercise, reductions in blood pH are associated with only small reductions in the total work performed in 30 s of maximal exercise. A delayed and smaller accumulation of lactate in plasma was observed following exercise during acidosis.

    But in this study, the effects on performance were negligible between acidosis and alkaline state. Same result here but also with no differences in lactate accumulation between the different pH conditions:

    Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol 1986;55(5):524-9

    The effect of sodium bicarbonate and sodium citrate ingestion on anaerobic power during intermittent exercise.

    Parry-Billings M, MacLaren DP.

    The effect of sodium bicarbonate and sodium citrate ingestion on cycling performance in three 30 s Wingate Anaerobic Tests separated by 6 min recovery periods has been studied using 6 male subjects. Subjects ingested either sodium bicarbonate (B), sodium bicarbonate plus sodium citrate (BC), sodium citrate © or sodium chloride (P) 2.5 h prior to exercise in a dose of 0.3 g kg-1 body weight. Pre-exercise blood pH was 7.44 +/- 0.06, 7.42 +/- 0.05, 7.41 +/- 0.05 and 7.38 +/- 0.04 in the C, BC, B and P conditions respectively. Mean and peak power output were significantly reduced by successive Wingate tests but not significantly affected by the treatments. Performance in the second and third tests was highest following C, BC and B ingestion. The total work done in the 3 tests was 103%, 102% and 101% of that achieved in the P condition after C, BC and B ingestion respectively. The increased alkali reserve recorded subsequent to bicarbonate and citrate treatment reduced mean post-exercise acidosis, although pH was significantly higher only in the C condition (p less than 0.05) compared to P after each exercise bout. No significant differences in plasma lactate concentration were recorded at any time. Citrate ingestion appears to be most effective in elevating blood pH and [HCO3-], and in enhancing performance in short-term intermittent exercise. This study demonstrates that alkali ingestion results in significant shifts in the acid-base balance of the blood and has a small, but non-significant, effect on anaerobic power and capacity as measured in a series of 3 Wingate Anaerobic Tests.

    Same here:

    Exp Physiol 1997 Nov;82(6):1041-56

    The effect of sodium citrate ingestion on the metabolic response to intense exercise following diet manipulation in man.

    Ball D, Maughan RJ.

    Feeding a high-carbohydrate (CHO) diet and administration of alkalinizing agents have both been shown to improve performance in high-intensity exercise. The effect of these treatments in combination was investigated in the present study. Six healthy male subjects exercised to exhaustion on an electrically braked cycle ergometer at a power output equivalent to 100% of their maximum oxygen uptake (VO2,max) on four separate occasions. Each subject consumed either a diet with the same composition as his normal diet (termed the experimental normal (N) diet; 54 +/- 7% CHO, 13 +/- 2% protein, 33 +/- 7% fat) or a high-CHO diet (81 +/- 2% CHO, 13 +/- 2% protein, 6 +/- 1% fat) that had the same energy and protein content for the 3 days prior to the exercise tests. Subjects then ingested either a placebo (CaCO3) or trisodium citrate (0.3 g (kg body mass)-1) 3 h before exercise. Time to fatigue was not different between experimental conditions. Consumption of the high-CHO diet had no effect on blood acid-base status, but the ingestion of sodium citrate induced a mild metabolic alkalosis after both the N diet and the high-CHO diet. This alkalinizing effect was also evident after exercise, since blood pH, plasma bicarbonate and blood base excess were higher (P < 0.05) after the ingestion of sodium citrate than under the placebo conditions. The changes in blood lactate, pyruvate and glucose and plasma glycerol after exercise were similar for all experimental conditions. Blood lactate, glucose and pyruvate and plasma glycerol concentrations increased from resting values (P < 0.01) following exercise but this increase was similar under all experimental conditions. These data demonstrate that when the energy and protein content of the diets is the same, exercise capacity and the metabolic response to intense exercise are similar following consumption either of a high-CHO diet or a more normal diet. Acute ingestion of sodium citrate prior to exercise resulted in a reduction in post-exercise acidosis despite a blood lactate concentration that was similar to that observed after the ingestion of a placebo, but did not affect exercise performance under the conditions of this study.

    This study confirms the first with a higher lactic acid generation in the alkaline state:

    Am J Physiol 1988 Sep;255(3 Pt 2):F479-85

    Effect of systemic pH on pHi and lactic acid generation in exhaustive forearm exercise.

    Hood VL, Schubert C, Keller U, Muller S.

    To investigate whether changes in systemic pH affect intracellular pH (pHi), energy-rich phosphates, and lactic acid generation in muscle, eight normal volunteers performed exhaustive forearm exercise with arterial blood flow occluded for 2 min on three occasions. Subjects ingested 4 mmol/kg NH4Cl (acidosis; A) or NaHCO3 (alkalosis; B) or nothing (control; C) 3 h before the exercise. Muscle pHi and phosphocreatine (PCr) content were measured with 31P-nuclear magnetic resonance (31P-NMR) spectroscopy during exercise and recovery. Lactate output during 0.5-7 min of recovery was calculated as deep venous-arterial concentration differences times forearm blood flow. Before exercise, blood pH and bicarbonate were lower in acidosis (7.303 +/- 0.009, 18.6 +/- 0.5 meq/l) than alkalosis (7.457 +/- 0.010, 32.2 +/- 0.7 meq/l) and intermediate in control (7.389 +/- 0.007, 25.3 +/- 0.6 meq/l). Lactic acid output during recovery was less with A (245 +/- 39 mumol/100 ml) than B (340 +/- 55 mumol/100 ml) (P less than 0.05) and intermediate in C (293 +/- 31 mumol/100 ml). PCr utilization and resynthesis were not affected by extracellular pH changes. pHi did not differ before exercise (A, 7.04 +/- 0.01; B, 7.09 +/- 0.01; C, 7.06 +/- 0.01) or at its end (A, 6.28 +/- 0.07; B, 6.28 +/- 0.11; C, 6.31 +/- 0.09). Hence systemic acidosis inhibited and alkalosis stimulated lactic acid output. These findings suggest that systemic pH regulates cellular acid production, protecting muscle pH, at the expense of energy availability.

    So for me the results are equivocal. From personal experience and from my athletes I'd say you can definitely generate more lactic acid under buffering conditions. The burning sensation in the muscles is clearly lower after ingestion of citrates or bicarbonate."

    But, I wonder as well, if the stimulation of MAPK erk1/2 will be lower on the 15's with buffering agents. But the whole body acidosis is counteracted with citrates, so this is definitely an advantage.
  7. Determined

    Determined New Member

    Any updates on this interesting topic, anecdotal or otherwise?

    One thought I had: if acetic acid improves glycogen repletion, wouldn't we want to decrease post-workout carbs a bit, so there isn't any "spill-over" for conversion to fat?
  8. Steve McDermott

    Steve McDermott New Member

    I've used vinegar with my post workout high carb (pasta) meal with noticable results. Within a few hours of that meal, I felt and looked almost as pumped as I did just after training. This does not happen to me without the vinegar. Nothing scientific about it though.

    It didn't hinder my fat loss in the least, as far as I can tell. Considering that this was always done with post training carbs, I would be surprised if it did.
  9. Determined

    Determined New Member


    Do you think it aided fat loss?. I understand this to be the expected net benefit (see Blade's post, page 1)
  10. boggy

    boggy New Member

    Steve, how much vinegar do u use in post w/o meal to see results?
  11. restless

    restless New Member

    I'm still using it. After everyworkout I have a large carb meal with one tablespoon of cider vinegar. During weekends I workout in the morning so I'll have it in two meals post workout. It's one of those things that's not exactly easy to evaluate if it's working well or not though.
  12. Steve McDermott

    Steve McDermott New Member

    I couldn't tell you if it's had any effect on fat loss. I've been doing too many other things to single out the vinegar in that regard. I also only use it during that one large post workout carb meal where as Nandi used an every meal protocol.

    I don't even measure it out really. I just pour a little into a shot glass and down it quickly. It does burn a little going down, so I take small amounts about 4 times during the meal. I would guess it's around 1-2 talblespoons total for around 150g of carbs.
  13. jsraaf

    jsraaf New Member

    Steve, can you describe your post-WO meal: timing, food content, etc.? Are you cutting now? What would you do differently, if anything, when bulking?


    PS- and I don't mean to jack your thread... [​IMG]
  14. Steve McDermott

    Steve McDermott New Member

    Sure, it's really nothing special at all.

    Right after training-Driver with skim milk
    About an hour later-huge bowl of pasta 100-150g of carbs(vinegar here)
    an hour after that- something like a big bowl of sherbet or lucky charms this is repeated again in an hour.
    before bed- cup of cottage cheese/ fish oil pills

    I have just finished cutting (since January) and will now be doing a short (5 week) bulking cycle and then start cutting again. I'm going to Aruba in March, and want to be in peak form for that.

    All I'm going to do to change to bulking is to eat around 400-500 above maintenance on training days and about 200-300 below maintenance on off days. I'll add more carbs on off days as well as on training days. I am starting to believe that calorie cycling, whether bulking or cutting is the best way for me to acheive my goals. If I do any cardio, I will eat to compensate for the calories burned as it will only be used for nutrient partitioning purposes. I hope to add some lean mass an absolutely zero fat (don't we all). Hopefully this approach will work out well. It worked very well for cutting while preserving lean mass.
  15. jsraaf

    jsraaf New Member

    Interesting. Almost sounds like you do mini-refeeds post-workout, given what you describe.

    I assume you have seen the Carb Cycling stuff over at Avant; any plans to implement anything like that?
  16. Blade

    Blade Super Moderator Staff Member

    De novo lipogenesis (DNL) or conversion of carbs to fat is a non-issue unless:

    You overfeed large quantities over several days (700-900g/day for 3-5 days)
    You get <10% of calories in your diet from fats.
    You are a rat
  17. Determined

    Determined New Member

    Thanks for the reply, Blade. That is useful info, but I was thinking of the fat loss scenario, where I assume excess carbs are consumed instead of fat. If acetic acid shuttles more carbs into glycogen stores, allowing more fat to be burned for energy, then I would expect some reduction in required carbs (below, say 7-10 g/kg/day1) for maximum glycogen repletion. This, then would allow some reduction in carb intake, with the goal of some fat loss while not sacrificing glycogen repletion. Make sense?
  18. McFerret85

    McFerret85 New Member

    Here is a link to an abstract for a paper that reports that supplementation with sodium bicarbonate and potassium bicarbonate increased calcium retention and decreased cortisol. The latter is potentially important, of course, because reducing cortisol could potentially reduce muscle breakdown and reduce fat deposition in the abdominal area.

    The full article should have info on the amounts used.
  19. Steve McDermott

    Steve McDermott New Member

    Basically, I am doing mini refeeds around my training. It's along the lines of Twin Peaks carb cycling idea, but I don't do any no carb days only low and high. I don't feel that I have needed the no carb days up to this point. Perhaps if fatloss stalls during my next cutting cycle I will go for the no carb days though. I can't really see me doing anything but high carb days on training days though. So I would have to modify it somewhat.
  20. Ruhl

    Ruhl New Member

    Why are people taking a whole tablespoon or two when the recommended amount of vinegar is 4cc/100g carbs? Does one take into account the amount of carbs consumed over a whole day or just the carbs taken in the post workout meal with the vinegar?

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