Starting Strength Before HST

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ryder22

New Member
HST is a great program in its mechanics and it is far more superior than any other programs that promotes muscle size gains "size and size alone". However training strength is much more logical for beginners since it is a critical factor in future size gains which is one of the principle that the HST program promotes namely "progressive load every workout". Now the problem here is that beginners don't have the sufficient strength that will be needed for the specific rep max micro-cycle of HST which are namely the 15s, 10s, and 5s. Speaking of what specific strength program that should be recommended for beginners, it should be Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength:Basic Barbell Training, for it teaches the lifter the correct form in the most effective free-weight exercises, effective and efficient strength gains for the complete beginners through sound and simplistic strategy using the 5 rep range which is really geared for neurological adaptation, and lastly is its gradual linear progression therefore the lifter/bodybuilder is getting stronger every workout until it stops working. The program is outlined as follows:
Workout A
Squats -  3x5
Bench Press - 3x5
Deadlifts - 3x5

Workout B
Squats - 3x5
Press(shoulder) - 3x5
Powercleans - 5x3

Basically, Rippetoe's program has many similarities with HST's principles particularly progressive load from workout to workout yet linear and frequency in which the trainee trains 3x a week on non consecutive days, however alternated every workouts using Workout A and B. So, training with Starting Strength first until it officially stalls on all lifts along with a 9 days SD after the cycle makes the HST program much more effective due to the initial strength gains through training the CNS. So in order for HST to work much more effectively and efficiently, do Starting Strength program first. HST is not a program for beginners but for intermediate to advanced trainees who wanted to continue to gain more muscle due to the stagnation of the most basic program which is Starting Strength. Everybody should start very simple and progress to a training program with more complexity. The point of my statement is, I may sound somehow cruel but as I've ventured through the world of weight training, I realized that the mastery of the core lifts are really that important in any lifters success in his/her training and I see that most people still doesn't know how to properly execute these fundamental and basic barbell lifts which are the squat, bench, press, cleans and deadlifts. After starting strength, proceed to the simplify and win HST program and as the trainee gets more experienced, additional complications can be added such as addressing a weak bodypart and use some isolation exercises or machine work. But still most people are training too complex that they want to do the complicated stuff in the belief that they will have better progress, however making things too complicated early in any bodybuilder/lifter's program can make an early halt to his/her progress and sometimes even can become counter-productive to their goals. Workout Programs need not be complicated, simplicity is the key for continued progress. Rock it on fellaz..
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That´s very sound advice, Ryder22. Unfortunately, the only people likely to follow it are older guys who have already made every mistake that can be made. The guys with limited development after years of on-again off-again training with all kinds of aches and pains due to bad exercise form, lack of proper warm ups, and adding too much weight too soon. The guys who have finally learned to leave their egos at the gym door and use a weight that they can actually do a PROPER squat with (which is probably about a 3rd of what they used to 1/4 squat with). The guys who have finally realized that triceps extensions, thigh extensions and the myriad similar kind of exercises are useless until you´ve built a solid base of strength and muscle mass using the basic compound exercises (and even then these frivolous exercises are not very important). The guys who are now convinced that the routines of the pros published in the BB mags are pure fiction. In other words the guys who will follow your advice aren´t the guys who need it, because they´ve already learned the hard way and understand the truth of what you are saying. The guys who really need your advice are the young guys starting out, but most of them won´t take it because they already know everything.
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But, on the other hand, if they are reading this forum they just might be smart enough to grasp your point.

I don´t mean to sound cynical, but I´m one of the old guys I´ve just described above and I know there are many many others. When I finally broke down and bought Starting Strength, the 1st thing I said to myself was I wished I had a book like that 35 years ago. Upon some careful reflection I came to the conclusion that even if I had it back then I probably wouldn´t have followed it. After all it´s not half as cool as the routines published by Weider and all the others.
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El Viejo how long have you been training using the Rippetoe's Starting Strength Workout before you proceeded to HST? In my experience I've tried HST first though I have some training experiences years ago, made really crucial mistakes etc, etc etc. I was also wrong for starting HST first though it is a great program since I've made some good gains yet stall early in the program for I've realized that I haven't mastered the core exercises nor have a really good strength base. Later, upon reading the thread of SST here in the HST forum, I realized that I'm still a beginner in terms of exercise mastery and I have to let go of my ego such as handling insanely heavy weights with improper form for the belief that it will produce size, using machines in the program etc etc. Now, these made me ventured and increased my curiosity for training for strength the right way, the conservative and the most strategic approach and these led me to research about Rippetoe's approach in muscle and strength building since he really had done and excellent job in explaining the CNS and the recruitment of motor units, correct anatomical position, progression and cycling etc. I remembered Rippetoe once said "training to get stronger in an exercise is different from just slapping weight to the bar to satisfy ones ego in the belief that the trainee has already gotten stronger", because exercise requires technique mastery such as timing, position, execution etc. So as for myself, my plan is to train using the Starting Strength Program until it stops working maybe for around 12 to 14 weeks and then take a 9 day SD then start my official and correct HST program cycle for 8 weeks..
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Ryder22,

Actually, I was introduced to SS the same way you were- via this forum. I finally bought the book a couple of months ago and was shocked that I didn´t know how to execute the basic exercises. The power clean that I was (occasionally) doing barely resembled the exercise that Ripp describes. That´s the real value of the book even if for some reason one doesn´t want to follow Ripp's set/rep scheme.  

At this stage of my life (57 yrs.old) I´ve come to the conclusion that I should just concentrate on strength and overall fitness and take whatever hypertrophy comes with that. I haven´t done bench presses in a year because of shoulder pain (probably due to B Pressing with elbows flared out) and stopped ALL upper body exercises a couple of months ago because it got so bad. So I´m not doing the complete SS program. I´ve been doing squats. DL, RDLs, and light power cleans. I finally bit the bullet and got a cortisone shot last Friday. I´ll try to slowly add in BP's and Presses when the shoulder improves. Anyway, I´ll continue with the SS protocol until I stop making linear progress and then I ´ll probably buy Practical Programming and go from there. So my plan is to stick to strength training and add in Crossfit type metcons once or twice a week for GPP.

So, if strength and GPP are my goals what am I doing on a hypertrophy centered forum? Because there are a lot of knowledgeable, open minded, friendly people that post here whose interests run the gamut from bodybuilding to power lifting and everything in between. After all,  I found SS through this forum. There does seem to be one thing most members have in common - a strong belief in the value of the basic compound exercises. You don´t see too many people listing triceps kickbacks and such as part of their routines. That´s the thing that attracted me to this forum in the 1st place.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So as for myself, my plan is to train using the Starting Strength Program until it stops working maybe for around 12 to 14 weeks and then take a 9 day SD then start my official and correct HST program cycle for 8 weeks..  </div>

That sounds like a good plan and the key to making progress is having a plan and sticking to it.
 
Yeah for novices strength training = hypertrophy training. If one were to follow a mildly modified version of HST (where you continue pushing the 5s until you cant increase your 5RM anymore) using the exercises that SS uses they would basically be doing SS with a 15 and 10 rep period before hand. So infact it makes sense to use SS first.
 
Thank you for supporting the topic El Viejo and bgates1654, well I see that things needed not to be complicated in order to be effective whether its working out or learning other fields of knowledge, the key there is simplicity yet preciseness. Well, all I can say is both SS and HST are great programs and I personally believe they are far more superior compared to the strength programs and other hypertrophy programs jibber jabbers like Weider, MuscleMag Routines that promises 20lbs of muscle in 6weeks etc etc. Yes this is interesting to hear for the enthusiastic newbies but it is far from the truth, from reality and as far as I'm concerned SS and HST are also the most realistic and sensible program that an average athlete could understand due to its simple technicalities yet it is precise on details. Bryan Haycock and Mark Rippetoe had done a great thing on studying the different fields of the exercise science along with rigid knowledge on human anatomy, one is focused on strength and the other is focused on how muscle tissue grows. So why not benefit from the two worlds? Lastly, as For El Viejo on what youve just said <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So, if strength and GPP are my goals what am I doing on a hypertrophy centered forum? Because there are a lot of knowledgeable, open minded, friendly people that post here whose interests run the gamut from bodybuilding to power lifting and everything in between.</div> Yes brother thats very very true, most people here at the forum are knowledgeable, friendly, optimistic, open minded and most of all they are willing to help everyone in terms of their training endeavors. Most discussions here in the HST forum are done in a respectful and humane manner, where everybody are helping one another rather than just criticizing or debating due to their high egos etc. In this forum people like Fausto, Mikeynov, Lol, MasterCFI, Ratty, Electric and so much more are the ones I admire due to their training wisdom as well as their kind hearted attitude. They share countless knowledge and I've learned also lots of things from them and of course I also see them as inspirations in which if they have achieved their goals through simple ways why cant I?
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BTW, if you've been helped by Rip's book, Starting Strength, make it a point to get his DVD. It is remarkably simple -- just Rip coaching the basic lifts -- but very helpful. Lol has the link posted someplace.
 
If one's main goal behind training is wellness and health, and after that getting strength and size, with neither the ambition to become the strongest powerlifter nor the wish to look like the hulk one day, would it be possible to alternate SS* and HST? Like, doing on &quot;cycle&quot; of SS, then one of HST, then one of SS again and so on?

Sorry if the question is stupid, but my copy of Starting Strength won't arrive before two weeks (I live in Germany), and I am very curious...

*(Or a similar strength - specific routine based on Rippetoes principles)

Edit: Never mind, I guess I have to read, try out and decide for myself. But answer me one simple question please: Does SS similar to HST try to avoid training to failure? Or do you at least not train to failure every work - out?

Because it was that particular element of HST that attracted me in the first place and made me try it out instead of continuing with my strength - specific training where I was supposed to train to failure every work - out, which made me feel tired and caused a slight but annoying pain in my limbs after a few months, although I was just training for half an hour two times per week...
 
H0neyBe4r sorry for the delayed response man because I was really busy for the past days due to personal situations that I have to address. Your question is not a stupid one and it has to be addressed and it is actually one good question, the more intelligent questions the better. Now as for your question itself which is Starting Strength and HST are completely similar, of course not in which SS in its name emphasize strength than size while HST emphasizes size than strength and that's the basic difference of course. However, if the programs have similarities of course they do have such as its frequency 3x a week on non-consecutive days and progressive load every workout in which both programs employ. Now, due to your question I have to assume that you're a complete beginner or an experienced lifter who had lots of training mistakes in the past like me or have different reasons. Now as what I have to say about the program SS that I have said before, it is highly recommended for beginners to start using SS before HST since they don't have have a solid strength base in which has to be considered first before training using other programs. Of course, some degree of strength is needed like in HST you have to cycle weights on different reps namely 15s, 10s and 5s. I assure that anyone cannot do this kind of program the right way which is namely HST if the lifter/trainee has no descent strength in his training arsenal as well as exercise mastery. So Rippetoe emphasizes getting strong in an exercise, the basic core exercise namely squat, deadlift, bench, shoulder press and power clean by using the 5 rep range in which a trainee starts conservatively in terms of weights being lifted and add weights in the lifts linearly or every workout until it stops working maybe for around 12 to 14 weeks.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The difference between the progressive loading between the programs is that SS emphasizes linear progression which is adding weight in the bar conservatively every workout until it stops working by just using the 5 rep range while in HST there is also progressive loading in every workout but using different rep ranges in which weights are cycled after each HST reps microcycle using 15s, 10s and 5s. In short SS uses no rep cycles just 5reps every workout while HST uses different rep cycles.</div>
By seeing the explanation above, it is clearly seen that HST is absolutely not for beginners for its technical rep range cycling while SS is the correct program for beginners due to its simple mechanics. Now for this question of yours:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Edit: Never mind, I guess I have to read, try out and decide for myself. But answer me one simple question please: Does SS similar to HST try to avoid training to failure? Or do you at least not train to failure every work - out? </div>
Another good question. Yes both programs suggests that a trainee should avoid training to failure for the reason that it will not jeopardize the CNS. This is well explained by the founder of the HST program itself Mr.Bryan Haycock, that training to failure will slow down or even halt strength production due to the fact that the CNS is the one that is responsible for strength gains, if it is fried due to constantly training to failure, as a result there is no strength gain or at worst strength loss will occur. So my suggestion is try to avoid failure at all cost by adding weight to the bar in a conservative manner, keep your diet in check and ensure you have proper rest. These are the factors you have to consider if you want to get stronger in any strength-program like SS, avoid training to failure. As Mark Rippetoe said &quot;Failed reps don't count&quot;.
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Because it was that particular element of HST that attracted me in the first place and made me try it out instead of continuing with my strength - specific training where I was supposed to train to failure every work - out, which made me feel tired and caused a slight but annoying pain in my limbs after a few months, although I was just training for half an hour two times per week...</div>
Well man its time to give SS program a wholehearted shot for with all honesty, I see that your current workout program gives you more harm than good. Now if you're really interested in starting Rippetoe's SS program and to learn its different mechanics, click these links below:
Starting Strength Wiki
Guide to Basic Barbell Training: Starting Strength
Hope this helps man thank you..
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Also I highly recommend that you must have a copy of the book of Starting Strength. Look for the 2nd edition, which is more detailed and complete. Try also to have the Starting Strength DVD which El Viejo says in this forum, it will really help you on each and every aspect about Rippetoes Starting Strength Program especially on how to do exercise properly in order for you to master the different core lifts that Rippetoe had employed in his program.
 
Thanks for the answers @ryder22! You are right, the routine I used previously (on and off) did more harm then good when I finally did it on a regular basis for some months in a row, which is why I decided to give HST a try, despite the emphasis on hypertrophy and despite the fact that I probably wasn't strong enough to really benefit from it.

But I have to say that the past six weeks did more for me than the other routine did in years, I feel better, I feel stronger and I seem to have gained some size.

Then I saw this thread, and after a while decided to order a copy of Starting Strength. The thing is, it will take two weeks until it arrives, and then probably a couple of weeks until I read and digested it.

How should I proceed in the meantime? I wanted to do a second cycle of HST, modeled as proposed in the Simplify And Win - Thread, before doing SS. Would you advise against that? Or maybe I could modify it a little, by skipping the 15's, and lowering the volume a little, like this for example:

Workout A Workout B
Leg Press Leg Curls
Shoulder Press Bench Press
Pulldowns Pulldowns

As you can see I wasn't doing squats and deadlifts anyway, due to lacking the proper form.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How should I proceed in the meantime? I wanted to do a second cycle of HST, modeled as proposed in the Simplify And Win - Thread, before doing SS. Would you advise against that? Or maybe I could modify it a little, by skipping the 15's, and lowering the volume a little, like this for example:

Workout A                                 Workout B
Leg Press                                  Leg Curls
Shoulder Press                          Bench Press
Pulldowns                                  Pulldowns

As you can see I wasn't doing squats and deadlifts anyway, due to lacking the proper form.</div>

H0neyBe4r, as I've told and recommended before you should start with starting strength before doing any other program like HST. Well, simplify and win HST is still HST and is no way to be a beginners program nor a mastery program since the mechanics that you're using is still the 15s,10s and 5s in terms of rep ranges, weights are still cycled every two weeks. And remember beginners are classified by Rippetoe as:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
1. completely untrained couch potato.
2. completely untrained couch potato.
3. trainee with a small bit of training experience
4. the &quot;trainee who is only experienced in the lifts that he likes to do&quot; (ie. the trainee who can bench 300 but has never done a full barbell squat).
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We who're though somehow experienced lifters falls under the category 4 of beginners. I myself is guilty of that doing the exercises that I like and doesn't want to neither squat or deadlift due to technical and physiological reasons e.g hard to do etc. But now I have learned to love these exercises and turned out to be my favorite exercises because it's really fantastic if it is approached properly. Lastly, the one that you have just said that you are not be doing squats and deadlift due to lack of knowledge about proper form/technique, well my answer to that is you should not make it a big problem or an excuse to wait for two weeks in order to get the copy in order to the program. You can research about that in the internet like for example in youtube, you can see the different instructional videos of Mark Rippetoe regarding to the proper execution of the basic lifts like the squat, deadlift, bench, overhead press, and powerclean. Learning stuffs about working out is not that of a problem today, since we are in the 21st century, technology is widespread and there are so much we can learn from like the internet but we also have to be smart since there is also a widespread of false information lurking around the web. Online coaches are available, free pdf downloads on information about a workout program, and even in youtube you can learn how to execute these exercises by watching, viewing it again and again, practice it by yourself and I'll guarantee due to your determination to learn, you will definitely learn these core lifts in the fastest time possible. Make no excuses man, start learning the principles of the Rippetoe program now, the earlier you'd start, the earlier that you'll be able to learn and do the program properly.
 
Ok, you convinced me. The timing isn't so bad either, since I can practice the correct forms of the exercises with my old barbell at my mothers home, the empty bar just weights 12 kg/26,5 lbs.

Thanks again for all the advise and pushes in the right direction.
 
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(H0neyBe4r @ Mar. 24 2009,10:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If one's main goal behind training is wellness and health, and after that getting strength and size, with neither the ambition to become the strongest powerlifter nor the wish to look like the hulk one day, would it be possible to alternate SS* and HST? Like, doing on &quot;cycle&quot; of SS, then one of HST, then one of SS again and so on?</div>
If your main goal in training is now wellness and health rather than purely strength or hypertrophy, you could do a lot worse than head on over to the main Crossfit site and check out their daily WODs. Even if you don't fancy the workout of the day there are plenty of previous WODs to keep things interesting and progressive.

The WODs often include exercises with more of a skill element than for regular weight training (although all the regulars are there like deads, squats and presses). A fair number of WODs involve some gymnastic type moves and there's often some Oly lifting or Oly assistance exercises.

See how long it takes you to do a Fran! Much harder than it sounds.

I tend to pick a Crossfit WOD for my infrequent metcon sessions.

http://www.crossfit.com
 
Thanks for the tip, I already checked the site out a little, but for now I will continue jogging 2 times a week and doing SS three times a week, after learning to do the lifts correctly. It might be something for later...
 
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(H0neyBe4r @ Mar. 30 2009,7:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks for the tip, I already checked the site out a little, but for now I will continue jogging 2 times a week and doing SS three times a week, after learning to do the lifts correctly. It might be something for later...</div>
Everybody is entitled to do what ever they want, so  please don´t interpret this as me telling what you should be doing. It´s just a suggestion. Try substituting your 2 jogging sessions with crossfit type metcons for a couple of weeks and see how you feel. You can scale the WODs to your ability or even make up your own using exercises you already know, e.g., 3-5 rounds of 1minute jumping rope, 10 burpees, and 10 chin ups. If nothing else at least you´ll save yourself some time.  
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 (LSD jogs consume more time than metcons).
 
Maybe when I am in a better shape then now, still struggling a little with my stomach atm, which produces too much acid. Guess I have to wait until my belly - fat is gone completely. Even though it isn't much, it's enough to lie heavy on the stomach at night. Thats what people who had similar problems say.

But even before that problem I made the experience that very intense workouts do not do me any good. I have to feel good while jogging and better or at least the same after, otherwise it has the same or even a worse effect then no training: a lack of energy and tiredness all the time. Exactly the opposite of what can be achieved with jogging (or other cardio exercises) when done right. These experiences are what made me see wellness as the most important factor for training, because in my case it is a good indicator for overall progress. If the training improves wellness, it also improves overall capability and looks.

And the CF - workouts seem pretty intense, at least that is the impression I got from the videos on the CF - site. Workouts after which I would just lie exhausted on the ground, as several people in the vids did, would weaken me in the long run.

But since it is recommended by so many people here who usually give good advice, I will give a try sometime.
 
Crossfit style workouts are like anything else; you have to ease into them. Going all out like you see in the vids is for experienced crossfitters who have built up to that level of intensity. For scaled (lighter weight/less reps) WODs check out Brandx scaled WODs for ideas on how to scale:
http://www.crossfitbrandx.com/index.p....3157228
Start out with the &quot;buttercup&quot; at 80% then increment up like in weight training.
 
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(H0neyBe4r @ Apr. 01 2009,7:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Maybe when I am in a better shape then now, still struggling a little with my stomach atm, which produces too much acid. Guess I have to wait until my belly - fat is gone completely. Even though it isn't much, it's enough to lie heavy on the stomach at night. Thats what people who had similar problems say.

But even before that problem I made the experience that very intense workouts do not do me any good. I have to feel good while jogging and better or at least the same after, otherwise it has the same or even a worse effect then no training: a lack of energy and tiredness all the time. Exactly the opposite of what can be achieved with jogging (or other cardio exercises) when done right. These experiences are what made me see wellness as the most important factor for training, because in my case it is a good indicator for overall progress. If the training improves wellness, it also improves overall capability and looks.

And the CF - workouts seem pretty intense, at least that is the impression I got from the videos on the CF - site. Workouts after which I would just lie exhausted on the ground, as several people in the vids did, would weaken me in the long run.

But since it is recommended by so many people here who usually give good advice, I will give a try sometime.</div>
HBe4r,
No one knows your body like you do, so do whatever you think is right.  However, I sense from your post that there's something else going on here. Someday you are going to have to break out of your comfort zone and push yourself beyond what you you think you are capable of doing. When you finally do it don't tell your friends and co-workers because they don't give a rat's a$$. However, do feel free to brag about it here. We understand and appreciate that kind of thing.

Stumbling about the gym sweating profusely and gasping for air will bring you closer to Nirvana in addition to shocking the non-sweating never-breathe-hard multitudes at your local gym. So sayeth the old and wise El Viejo.  
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I have experienced overtraining due to being overzealous, and I have experienced undertraining and no training due to fear of overtraining.

I also have experienced the right amount of training, with amazing results, but my health problems (which I handled in the worst way possible when they started, which made the whole thing worse and longer then it had to be) screwed up my balance and perception concerning my body, making me repeat some of my past mistakes at one point, which is why I am sometimes  still overly careful, as I have to admit.

For now it's better to do in cardio in a way I am sure about that it works for me, and to focus on SS:BBT for weightlifting, getting the lifts right and do the program as long as it works. Then I will see. CF looks pretty interesting though, but also quite confusing so far...

Again, thanks for all the advise, it's a great forum with a lot of helpful people, I will come back here on a regular basis. I will also post my  first results with SS in 6-8 weeks, might even start a training log.
 
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