Squats/Cleans

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colby2152

New Member
I must admit that I am not very good with squats. I haven't done them with too much consistency in the past couple years, and when I did them, I usually used a Smith machine. This past cycle, I tried to go free weight with a barbell and a power rack. My balance is not great and neither is my strength.

I would like to still do squats, but I am looking for a safer solution without using the Smith rack. What do you guys think about Hack Squats?

Also, I think I am going to do Cleans or Clean & Press this upcoming cycle. Any opinions and/or suggestions?

Thanks guys,
Colby
 
Does your power rack have the safety bars you can use? You can set those in place to make sure you don't get squashed.

I wouldn't worry about the lack of balance or strength. I would just start light, get your form down and then move up from there.

Keystone
 
For any explosive lift such as cleans, form really falls away after around 5 or 6 reps. Therefore, if you include them, only start them once you get to the 5s.
 
colby,

if your serious about being bigger (more muscular) and/or stronger then at some point you must squat and deadlift. a small percentage of folks cannot do one or the other b/c of injuries etc. but it doesnt sound like that is a problem for you.

im not saying other exer. are not valid and useful (leg press, free wgt or machine hack) but most who avoid deadl. or squat is b/c they can be painfull to do correctly (hard pain not injury pain) and they are just not good at doing them. problem is they are the 2 staple exer. for muscle and strength gaining. other exer can be used for a while as substitutes but they will always be poor 2nd cousins to squat and deadlift.

as was mentioned before, start light/modest wgt and dont bother trying to progress too quickly. your form and balance will improve over time and the wgts will slowly go up.

now about the clean and press. im no expert (by any means) but it requires a good bit of balance, coordination as well as strength to execute this exer. im certainly NOT saying dont try it (it is an excellent exer.)  but definitly study technique and keep the wgt light to start. like the squat, it takes time and practice to get good form but you will be rewarded when that happens and the wgt starts to go up.

taking the time to learn to squat properly now (even at light wgt) will payoff big time down the road and like i said, if your serious about lifting (and not limited with injury) you will eventually squat. why not sooner rather then later.

good luck
 
I lift at a gym that have power racks with safety bars. I have been doing that, but I am uncomfortable doing the lift.

Cxw, why would I only want to include cleans once I hit the 5's? As far as form is concerned, that is the first thing I will concentrate on, so the load will be lighter.

Thanks... any opinions on the hack squats? Does anyone like doing this exercise?
 
Hacks are hard indeed. They're great for quads IMO, but not so much hams or core muscle. Another event where the freeweights get you there better, faster, and stimulate (according to some things I read) more GH. As stated, squats and deads build mass better than anything out there.
I wish I had progressed slowly with squats rather than worrying about how much OTHER guys were lifting and hurt myself at about 450 and quit them. I've rehabbed with my lever squat machine, but although it's more like a squat, I still don't have to balance the weight, eliminating a lot of smaller muscles from the lift. I'm going to build a squat rack soon and start them...with an almost empty bar, and come up slow. I've learned that if you ever, ever, ever, bypass form in the squat, you're heading for the hurt locker.
Let 'em laugh or snicker or draw funny pictures. They won't be laughing in a year.
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(colby2152 @ Mar. 01 2007,16:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I lift at a gym that have power racks with safety bars.  I have been doing that, but I am uncomfortable doing the lift.

Cxw, why would I only want to include cleans once I hit the 5's?  As far as form is concerned, that is the first thing I will concentrate on, so the load will be lighter.

Thanks... any opinions on the hack squats?  Does anyone like doing this exercise?</div>
ive tried free wgt hack before. i didnt care for it much. felt too much like a deadlift which i was already doing and with my long legs i never got comfortable with the set-up.

my gym has a hack machine. ive done a couple cycles using the hack machine (atg) max-stim style. i got very good results size-wise from the hack but have not seen any translation into improved squat from it.

id recommend trying any exer. you think you might like or would work. another idea that might be worth trying is to work on squat technique as a warm up to whatever leg exer you chose. when i 1st did hacks i didnt squat for over 2 months and it showed when i went back to it. now i squat (atg) with 135 for a set or 2 as a warm up to hack (when im doing them) and i concentrate on going deep and keeping my form tight. 135 isnt heavy for me so i dont have to worry about fatigue or strain but heavy enough to provide resistance (couldnt do just the bar) requiring form.

anyway, just some thoughts, good luck.
 
Thank you everyone for the comments.

Bluejacket, I am a serious lifter. I already do deadlifts and squats (just thinking about changing them to hack squats.) Your advice about working on squat technique as a warmup sounds like a good idea.

I'll take everyones advice and restart off with very ligth weights for the squats - whether they are standard or hack. Overcoming my balance issue is the biggest problem, but I can do that with the light weight.

I want to use Cleans/Clean &amp; Press (either or) along with Squats as an alternate for Deadlifts and Leg Press. It sounds like some heavy lifting, but as you'll see, my next cycle is all about these core compound exercises.
 
New member, and I'm continually impressed with the level of sensible information here. (Even when it's conflicting!) Great forum, guys.

My question re. safe squats (home gear) is whether dumbell squats are useful. I realize grip and shoulder strength will limit ultimate weight, but for starters, is it recommended. My main difficulty thus far is getting a wide stance, using honking fat dumbell plates.
 
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(colby2152 @ Mar. 01 2007,19:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I want to use Cleans/Clean &amp; Press (either or) along with Squats as an alternate for Deadlifts and Leg Press. It sounds like some heavy lifting, but as you'll see, my next cycle is all about these core compound exercises.</div>
The clean &amp; press should not be an alternate for deadlifts or squats (I think the leg press is a waste of time). The weight you can use to press will not be nearly enough weight to stimulate growth in your legs, unless of course you're legs are relatively weak or you're a freak of nature when it comes to OH pressing.

I'm not suggesting you don't do them, by all means, do C&amp;P's, just don't use it as an alternate for squats and deadlifts. A full squat clean may be a good substitute though. Bill Starr has written about doing heavy cleans and less frequent deadlifting to help improve the deadlift.

Listen to what a couple of guys suggested, going over 5 reps is dangerous because form breaks down, even if you do them first. I would do them during the 15's and 10's, I'd do sets of five and maybe just do 3 or more sets.

Take my word for it, you don't want to get hurt doing cleans, I almost broke both wrists last month. Cleans are a very fast exercise (the second pull) and as you fatigue your speed is going to suffer. Next thing you know your elbows touch your thighs at the bottom of the lift and you can hear the ligaments in your wrists making a cracking sound.
 
Rippetoe's book &quot;Starting Strength&quot; probably has 50 pages on proper barbell squat technique...he also says its one of the hardest exercises to do properly, but when done properly, it's also one of the safest and most beneficial.

I'll bet i've read that chapter 5 times in the past week, its a lot to remember...its also quite ego deflating to use light weights, but its MUCH more important to nail the form than it is to be playing the numbers game.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My balance is not great and neither is my strength.
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This is more of a question, because I have limitations in squatting too, and I'm sure it's mostly do to inexperience and lack of coaching...

Don't exercises like front squats, box squats, overhead squats, etc. address weaknesses like balance, building strength in primary and supportive muscles?

I was thinking, not so much of putting those lifts in my HST cycles, but spending a few weeks between cycles doing the variations of the squat to see what that does for me. Any thoughts?
 
Leige,

Thanks for the response, but what I plan on doing is splitting those four exercise as follows:

A: Deadlifts, Leg Press
B: Clean &amp; Press, Squats

I figure the addition of Leg Press and Cleans are better than not doing them at all. I am adding Arnold Presses, Bench Press, Dips, Chins, Lat Pulldowns, Calf Raises, Crunches, and Hyperextensions to the routines.
 
colby2152: OK I was unclear how you were substituting, though I am all for dropping the leg press.
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If you're doing the clean &amp; press the same day as squats that's good.

etothepii: I think it's a good idea to add in front squats and OH squats to an HST routine. OH squats will really show core weakness and balance problems.
 
I believe in keeping things simple, focus on a few exercises and get as strong as possible in them. The 5x5 type routines and Rippetoe 3x5 are successful because they focus on the squat/deadlift and there are only a few other compounds. The leg press is a poor substitute because in my experience, there is little carry over (if any) to the squat or deadlift. I wouldn't think there would be any carry over to olympic lifts.
 
Colby...mate.

If I were you, and this may be the problem due to your height (I'm a short s..t remember?)...I'd use something under my heels (about an inch at most), it works for me and I will not squat without it, and that goes for any type of squats.

On another chapter I perform both ATG and Box squats on the same day (ATG at close stance and Box wide), switching to box after the weight is too heavy to handle in ATG stance.

Hack squats - These are cool, but I have hurt myself when doing the standard BB variety, if you're doing them on a machine then by all means, use them, but otherwise I'd be skeptical (maybe it was just my form).

I think if you give squats a chance and start light they will reward you.

Front squats are terrible to do but are great for the quads...your pick mate!
 
The best way to improve squat performance is to squat. Leg presses, imo, are a waste of time. You will in now way mprove your balance for squating and nothing really carriers over to squat by way of strength, speed, flexability or form. Sure you can do a lot more weight with leg presses, but so what. I would rather see you switch it up between front, back and box squats.
 
The hacks are purportedly fairly bad for your knees...I`ve never done a hack squat, so I don`t know first hand, mind you. Front squats are also fairly hard to do with highish reps, without having your form go down the drain.

A good way to improve your squat would be to drop your ego down a deep deep hole and use a lowish weight. Then when you`re repping, focus on keeping your abs(or that new discovered core thing that everybody works on bosu balls
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) fairly tight, your posture upright and, most importantly, on feeling the muscles you`re targeting, contract. You should definitely feel an upper-leg &quot;blast&quot;(for lack of a better word) when you start pushing from parallel/lower than parallel in a squat.

Work up your weight slowly, and once you reach the heavies you`ll most likely have a proper squatting form. Also, if you can, don`t use a belt, that should strenghten the core and improve your posture...unless you`re using a zillion pounds, then you can`t drop the belt no matter what
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