I lost all my gain during the SD :(

[panzer]

While in my first cycle of HST I made tremendous gains: my biceps went from 161/2" to almost 17" and my strenght went up dramaticaly as well. I was extremely satisfied untill I took that darned week off that we are required to take (SD). Then, all my gains vanished! Is this normal?
Now, I am beginning my second week of 15's which appart from being painfull and giving me a very temporary pump, my arms are still back to 16 1/2

.
I might add at this point that during my first cycle, I had skipped the 15's right after I found out my maxes.
Question: should I skip the 15's and do only 10 and 5 like i did during my sucessfull first cycle?

 

[Totentanz]

That was probably water weight. One week off isn't long enough to lose that much muscle mass, unless you ate nothing at all during your SD.

You can skip the 15s if you want, but there really isn't much reason to do so. It's up to you though. Just remember to eat big and you should gain big.

 

[noobie]

yea, i would stick with goin with the 15s and up the carbs for post workout. you should see the water weight and glycogen replenishment go up and have that full feeling in your muscles again.

pzhang

 

[semajes]

Did you really only take 1 week off?

 

[Lance]

I usually SD for a week as well. Actually 9 days because my cycle will end on a Friday and i'll take the full week off (which includes that weekend) then start on the Monday.

 

[Louno]

My last cycle i started at 148 and went up to 156, then i took my sd and got back to 150-151 ... now im at my 4th workout in the 15s and im at 151 still, i hate only a little below or at maintenance calories during my 15 day SD , my cycle was ~9 week long, but during sd i also stopped taking creatine... I really feel all tiny compared to how i felt before sd and my muscles are all soft hehe,
i dont know this is my 3rd SD and so far it has been the worst... on my other SD i lost about the same weight but i didnt feel so tiny and soft

 

[McDee]

I ended up taking about 14 days off myself, but I only completed one HST cycle so far, started my 2nd about 1.5 weeks ago.

Anyways I only lost about 2-3 lbs during the SD, and not very much size at all. I did cheat and go jogging about twice a week @about 4km each though.

Quote[/b] ]i hate only a little below or at maintenance calories during my 15 day SD

Louno, are you french canadian by chance?

 

[savagebeast]

Math is fun! Let's do math!

panzer, you didn't say how much weight you lost during your sd or exactly how long it was, so I'll use Louno's information instead.

Weight lost on SD = 5 lbs. (5 or 6, really, but let's just say it's 5)
Length of SD = 15 days

Alright, now the calculations:

5 lbs. = 2.273 kg = 2273 g

(2.2 lbs. = 1 kg = 1000 g)

If we assume the worst and say that Louno lost nothing but pure muscle on his SD (i.e. no water, glycogen, or fat loss). Then this means he lost 2273 g of protein.

2273 g protein = 9092 calories

(1 g protein = 4 calories)

In this worst case scenario, Louno would have had to create a total energy deficit of 9092 calories over his 15 day SD.

9092 calories / 15 days = 606 calories / 1 day

This means that Louno would have to have been eating 606 calories under maintenance each day during his SD in order to lose 5 lbs. of pure muscle. That's a pretty significant caloric deficit.

While the calculations might be a little more complex than this, the point of my example was to show that it is difficult to lose a significant amount of muscle during SD. You would need to be eating well below maintenance in order for this to happen, in which case it would be ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT!

I'm sure that both Louno and panzer know not to eat 600 calories below maintenance during SD, and I seriously doubt that Louno was eating 600 calories below maintenance during his SD. While he may have lost a little bit of muscle due to undereating, it's likely that most of it was just water weight, especially since he stopped taking creatine after his cycle. Also, creatine, possibly combined with improper fluid intake, is probably a big reason why Louno has yet to gain back all the weight he lost. Plus, over SD your muscles aren't "pumped," which explains why they might be a little smaller. Once you start lifting again they should refill with glycogen and the "pumped" look will return.

So guys, unless you royally screwed up your diet during SD, the weight you lost is almost entirely water. Just drink more water and stick with noobie's advice:

Quote[/b] (noobie @ May 30 2005,6:32)]yea, i would stick with goin with the 15s and up the carbs for post workout. you should see the water weight and glycogen replenishment go up and have that full feeling in your muscles again.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (savagebeast @ May 31 2005,7:13)]Math is fun!  Let's do math!  


While the calculations might be a little more complex than this, the point of my example was to show that it is difficult to lose a significant amount of muscle during SD.  


You would need to be eating well below maintenance in order for this to happen, in which case it would be ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT!  

Do we gotta

Amen Brother Savage

In which case don't SD.

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

Quote[/b] (savagebeast @ May 31 2005,8:13)]Math is fun!  Let's do math!  
panzer, you didn't say how much weight you lost during your sd or exactly how long it was, so I'll use Louno's information instead.  
Weight lost on SD = 5 lbs. (5 or 6, really, but let's just say it's 5)
Length of SD = 15 days
Alright, now the calculations:  
5 lbs. = 2.273 kg = 2273 g
(2.2 lbs. = 1 kg = 1000 g)
If we assume the worst and say that Louno lost nothing but pure muscle on his SD (i.e. no water, glycogen, or fat loss).  Then this means he lost 2273 g of protein.  
2273 g protein = 9092 calories
(1 g protein = 4 calories)
In this worst case scenario, Louno would have had to create a total energy deficit of 9092 calories over his 15 day SD.  
9092 calories / 15 days = 606 calories / 1 day
This means that Louno would have to have been eating 606 calories under maintenance each day during his SD in order to lose 5 lbs. of pure muscle.  That's a pretty significant caloric deficit.  
While the calculations might be a little more complex than this, the point of my example was to show that it is difficult to lose a significant amount of muscle during SD.  You would need to be eating well below maintenance in order for this to happen, in which case it would be ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT!  
I'm sure that both Louno and panzer know not to eat 600 calories below maintenance during SD, and I seriously doubt that Louno was eating 600 calories below maintenance during his SD.  While he may have lost a little bit of muscle due to undereating, it's likely that most of it was just water weight, especially since he stopped taking creatine after his cycle.  Also, creatine, possibly combined with improper fluid intake, is probably a big reason why Louno has yet to gain back all the weight he lost.  Plus, over SD your muscles aren't "pumped," which explains why they might be a little smaller.  Once you start lifting again they should refill with glycogen and the "pumped" look will return.  
So guys, unless you royally screwed up your diet during SD, the weight you lost is almost entirely water.  Just drink more water and stick with noobie's advice:

Quote[/b] (noobie @ May 30 2005,6:32)]yea, i would stick with goin with the 15s and up the carbs for post workout. you should see the water weight and glycogen replenishment go up and have that full feeling in your muscles again.

From what I understand, there's 400 calories in 1lb of muscle. (We have already discussed that before.)

In other words, if you "burn" 400 calories from your muscles, you've lost one lb, because you lose the water that comes along with the muscle .

So I'm not sure that your calculation is correct.

 

[Louno]

yeah im a french canadian hehe
So what i understand is that losing muscle isnt easy, even tho it might look like you lost muscle its only because it isnt pumped and it lost water, So inevitabelly when you go in SD you lose a certain amount of water ?
Could i lose fat too ?

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Just to set the record straight.

Quote from
Protein, fat, and carbohydrate requirements during starvation:
anaplerosis and cataplerosis
Oliver E Owen, Karl J Smalley, David A D’Alessio, Maria A Mozzoli, and Elizabeth K Dawson

Quote[/b] ]The mean FFMD loss from lean structural protein was 147 g X 5.57/6.25 protein = 730 g protein. Lean tissue is approximately 20% protein, or the ratio of lean tissue to protein is 5:1. Therefore, the mass of lean tissue loss equaled 730 g X 5 tissue = 3650 g tissue.
The difference between total FFMD loss and lean tissue loss
was calculated as 5880 g - 3650 g = 2230 g, which was assigned to extracellular fluid loss. The mean assumed simple and conjugated proteins (eg, glycoproteins) lost from the extracellular fluid were 147 g X 0.68 aminogenic material = 100 g aminogenic material. The percentage of extracellular fluid loss that was aminogenic materials was 100/2230 = 4.5%, or, the ratio of extracellular fluid to aminogenic material loss was approximately 22:1.

This means, that even with 21 days of total starvation, of the 26 Lbs lost, structural protein loss equated to only 8 Lbs of tissue, extracellular fluid loss equated to 5 lbs of which amino's in the extracellular fluid was about 1/4 of a Lb. It also gives credence to the fact that during starvation there is a parallel loss of fat and protein.

Therefore to worry about protein loss during SD, when hopefully you are in a feed state, is to worry about nothing. Any loss of size you see during an SD is extracellular fluid of which amino content is small.

Plus this gives some more math for Savagebeast,

 

[savagebeast]

Quote[/b] (Heavy Duty dude @ June 01 2005,4:33)]From what I understand, there's 400 calories in 1lb of muscle. (We have already discussed that before.)

In other words, if you "burn" 400 calories from your muscles, you've lost one lb, because you lose the water that comes along with the muscle .

So I'm not sure that your calculation is correct.

Darn. Well, I kinda figured it was more complicated than that. I was only taking the protein into account, not the water that goes along with it. Losing 5 lbs. of protein would correspond to losing about 25 lbs. of muscle once you take water into account, since muscle is only 20% protein. Shame on me, I shouldn't have neglected water.

Alright, here's attempt #2:

According to Heavy Duty dude,

1 lb. muscle = 400 calories = 100 g protein

From the information that dkm provided,

730 g protein = 8 lbs. muscle
91.25 g protein = 1 lb. muscle

Or, using the fact that muscle is 20% protein,

1 lb. muscle = 455 g muscle
.20 x 455 g = 90.9 g protein

All three say that 1 lb. of muscle equates to about 100 g protein.

Then 5 lbs. = 500 g protein = 2000 calories

2000 calories / 15 days = 133 calories / 1 day

This says that to lose 5 lbs. of muscle (including water weight, which I neglected in my first set of calculations) over the course of a 15 day SD you would need to undereat by 133 calories each day.

Hopefully I got it right this time around.

But although the numbers have changed, the point is still the same: unless you eat under maintenance during SD, you won't lose a significant amount of muscle. If you do lose any weight while eating maintenance calories, it should be mostly water.

 

[Michael_S]

savagebeast,

Your 133 calorie per day deficit assumes that all losses come from muscle. If panzer has an incredibly low, maybe even dangerously low body fat percentage, most of the calories from a calorie deficit would come from muscle.

Otherwise, I would guess some or maybe most of the calorie deficit would come from body fat stores.

 

[panzer]

At this point I might add that I did NOT loose any bodyweight (on the scale) during SD but oddly enough, I lost my "pump" in the biceps in particular ( the only part I measure) but this was not the pump from immediatly after a workout, this pump lasted throughout the 10's and 5's so I thought it would "stick".
So I got my 16 1/2 from my old HIT workout and in the first cycle
of HST i got 16 3/4 but now it's all gone. Easy come easy goes, with HST?
As far as nutrition goes, it's more than enough as i'm gaining fat in the 15's

Anyway, I get the feeling that the light weights in the 15's are a total waste of time, maybe? And maybe more emphasis should be put on the 10's and especially the 5's ?
But that's just my hunch, as i got great results from not doing the 15's in my first cycle. Hmmm....

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

Quote[/b] (savagebeast @ June 01 2005,3:04)]

Quote[/b] (Heavy Duty dude @ June 01 2005,4:33)]From what I understand, there's 400 calories in 1lb of muscle. (We have already discussed that before.)
In other words, if you "burn" 400 calories from your muscles, you've lost one lb, because you lose the water that comes along with the muscle .
So I'm not sure that your calculation is correct.

Darn.  Well, I kinda figured it was more complicated than that.  I was only taking the protein into account, not the water that goes along with it.  Losing 5 lbs. of protein would correspond to losing about 25 lbs. of muscle once you take water into account, since muscle is only 20% protein.  Shame on me, I shouldn't have neglected water.  
Alright, here's attempt #2:
According to Heavy Duty dude,
1 lb. muscle = 400 calories = 100 g protein
From the information that dkm provided,
730 g protein = 8 lbs. muscle
91.25 g protein = 1 lb. muscle
Or, using the fact that muscle is 20% protein,
1 lb. muscle = 455 g muscle
.20 x 455 g = 90.9 g protein
All three say that 1 lb. of muscle equates to about 100 g protein.  
Then 5 lbs. = 500 g protein = 2000 calories
2000 calories / 15 days = 133 calories / 1 day
This says that to lose 5 lbs. of muscle (including water weight, which I neglected in my first set of calculations) over the course of a 15 day SD you would need to undereat by 133 calories each day.  
Hopefully I got it right this time around.  
But although the numbers have changed, the point is still the same: unless you eat under maintenance during SD, you won't lose a significant amount of muscle.  If you do lose any weight while eating maintenance calories, it should be mostly water.

To tell you the truth I am not 100% sure of what I said. That's just my understanding of it.

From what I've understood, everything in the muscle cells are more or less proportionnal. You can't lose conctractile material - I guess that's where most of the proteins come from - without a proportional amount of water.

My guess is that's how people who come off cycles of steroids or andro can lose a lot of muscle while still eating at maintenance, because there really is not much calories in muscle. They catabolize muscle really fast.

I can be wrong however, I'm not really sure.

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

Quote[/b] (panzer @ June 01 2005,7:08)]At this point I might add that I did NOT loose any bodyweight (on the scale) during SD but oddly enough, I lost my "pump" in the biceps in particular ( the only part I measure) but this was not the pump from immediatly after a workout, this pump lasted throughout the 10's and 5's so I thought it would "stick".
So I got my 16 1/2 from my old HIT workout and in the first cycle
of HST i got 16 3/4 but now it's all gone. Easy come easy goes, with HST?
As far as nutrition goes, it's more than enough as i'm gaining fat in the 15's  

Anyway, I get the feeling that the light weights in the 15's are a total waste of time, maybe? And maybe more emphasis should be put on the 10's and especially the 5's ?
But that's just my hunch, as i got great results from not doing the 15's in my first cycle. Hmmm....

The 15s are done more to prepare the muscle for the heavy loads - thanks to the effect of lactic acid on the tendons -, than for maximizing hypertrophy.

Some people don't do them and go straight to the 10s.

If you were doing HIT before, maybe you didn't have much glycogen storage because of the very low volume and low frequency. So maybe that extra 1/4'' was for a part just glycogen.

 

[savagebeast]

Quote[/b] (Michael_S @ June 01 2005,12:59)]savagebeast,

Your 133 calorie per day deficit assumes that all losses come from muscle. If panzer has an incredibly low, maybe even dangerously low body fat percentage, most of the calories from a calorie deficit would come from muscle.

Otherwise, I would guess some or maybe most of the calorie deficit would come from body fat stores.

True. I did this intentionally, just to show what would be the absolute worst case scenario. As long as he wasn't eating 133 calories below maintenance, most of the weight lost would just be water weight. And even if he was eating 133 calories below maintenance, you're right in saying that some of it would have been fat. I just wanted to assume the worst to show that losing a significant amount of muscle during SD requires a decent caloric deficit.

Quote[/b] (Heavy Duty dude @ June 01 2005,5:24)]From what I've understood, everything in the muscle cells are more or less proportionnal. You can't lose conctractile material - I guess that's where most of the proteins come from - without a proportional amount of water.

I think this relates to the bigger issue of whether or not sarcoplasmic hypertrophy really exists. There is a good discussion of it in the thread Brian, Viscious... DKM...., are we SURE sarcoplasmic is a myth? (which might as well be called the dkm, NWlifter, and Vicious show). Unfortunately, I'm not smart enough to understand it. However, I think they reached a conclusion similar to what you said, either in that thread or a previous one.

But while your muscles can't grow bigger if their water stores are already sufficiently filled by simply taking up more water (you have to increase contractile proteins as well as water so that the balance between the two is preserved, as the sages have concluded), the reverse of this statement sounds reasonable to me: you can lose water weight without losing muscles. This would happen if you become dehydrated, or simply not as hydrated as you were before. I've heard plenty of stories about wrestlers who will lose a few pounds of water in order to make their weight class, and I doubt they lose muscle while doing this. Also, pro bodybuilders do this to make themselves look more shredded for competitions. Not that I would recommend doing this or anything... Plus, water is stored in more places in the body than just muscles. And of course, any water weight lost will be regained when you become properly hydrated once more. Therefore, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that just because you lose water weight doesn't mean you lose muscle. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.)

 

[Chthonian]

I don't see how it would be "easy come, easy go" with HST. Any mass or weight added to a frame is the same, regardless of how it got there. There must be another explanation for why you lost size, panzer. The reason? I honestly don't know. I'm not as well informed on this sort of thing as some of the others here are. Give the program a second run and see how it treats you.

On another note, are the 15's really so effective in protecting the joints from injury? I recently completed a few macrocycles of a 5x5 variation, courtesy of Bill Starr, and after ratcheting down through the intensity phase (utilizing a 3x3 scheme), my right elbow has become a hindrance. Pushing any serious weight irritates it.

Could this be due to all the low-rep, heavy weight work I've been doing? Has it been proven that lactic acid from high rep work is truly beneficial? I, personally, would like to get to where I want to be the best way possible. After brushing up on HST, I'm beginning to think it might be a good alternative.

 

[Fausto]

Panzer

(yoh bro., that sounds nice and heavy for a nickname)

I'd say you have not lost much at all 1/2" could easily be "water weight", did you stop creatine, protein intake the same, somewhat reduced?

We have here in South Africa a Company called USN with same real good supplements, one of them claims to "pump" the muscle fibres with alpha-keto glutarate, the product is called alpha-nitrox, why not give it a try, you should be able to find it in the net easily.

Now for some more rethoric, I have picked up a full inch in one cycle on my biceps and they really are feeling pumped up, but I have never lost much from 1 week SD, however there is the issue of when did you measure, I did after pumping, so I don't expect my cold measurement to be 15" at all, more like 14 1/2", that is half a inch between cold and pumped measurements.

I would not get despondent if I were you, just keep pushing cycles and the gain will become permanent, keep your protein intake above maintenance, keep the creatine going and maybe cycle it only every 8 - 12 weeks.

My two cents

Ciao