Genetic Potential

Discussion in 'Basic Training Principles and Methods' started by Lol, Nov 2, 2005.

  1. Lifting N Tx

    Lifting N Tx New Member

    <div>
    (drpierredebs @ Aug. 21 2006,05:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How do you know that the end to gains is not a function of training or cns exhaustion or the wrong foods or.....?</div>
    You don't.

    First you would need research demonstrating that the ideal training regimen had been discovered. Then that regimen would have to be applied to test groups to determine various individuals' &quot;genetic potential&quot;, and determine predictors of an individual's potential. Then you could know whether your gains had stopped because that's all that you could reasonably expect.

    That's the ideal, but even some indication of potential given use of good training practices would be interesting. Unfortunately I suspect that individual variation is such that we may never get a good enough predictor of such things to be very useful.
     
  2. <div>
    (Lifting N Tx @ Aug. 21 2006,10:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (drpierredebs @ Aug. 21 2006,05:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How do you know that the end to gains is not a function of training or cns exhaustion or the wrong foods or.....?</div>
    You don't.

    First you would need research demonstrating that the ideal training regimen had been discovered.  Then that regimen would have to be applied to test groups to determine various individuals' &quot;genetic potential&quot;, and determine predictors of an individual's potential.  Then you could know whether your gains had stopped because that's all that you could reasonably expect.

    That's the ideal, but even some indication of potential given use of good training practices would be interesting.  Unfortunately I suspect that individual variation is such that we may never get a good enough predictor of such things to be very useful.</div>
    Finally something approaching the scientific method.

    I am molecular biologist and a genetic engineer. I genetically manipulate
    stem cells, so I am critical when I hear things like &quot;genetic potential&quot;
     
  3. AShortt

    AShortt New Member

    Glad to read this thread, I have to deal with ‘genetic limit’ cop-out talk all the time in HIT circles.

    I say it is impossible to measure accurately even if you have the means. Why? Because we age (potential changes) and outside stress in life affects what is possible as well.

    Besides, why not always push forward with bettering exercise methodology? You may not end up that much bigger but you may stave off regression as you age that much better perhaps even longer. As well, improvements in methodology can be enjoyed by those coming after you.

    Regards,
    Andrew
     
  4. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Whilst bacteria fungi and virusses can be genetically manipulated quite well, it is not the case withhumans, unles of course you start &quot;beating the system&quot; with anabolics, then you are taking out the potential genetic limits and are getting bigger than you should, some to my entire disgust [​IMG] end up paying rather heavily for these heroics and for being entire &quot;meat heads&quot; ending up in what I'd call the rubish bin of this art of body building.

    But saving the rather angry rant...Andrew's ideal is rather what I'd say is to aim for...although some would disagree...at the ned many do end up getting somewhat bigger even in a &quot;normal state&quot; by manipulating training techniques! [​IMG]
     
  5. Lifting N Tx

    Lifting N Tx New Member

    I think that the use of the term &quot;genetic potential&quot; perhaps throws the discussion off a bit. I think that most just want to know what they can reasonably expect if they control the things that they can control (training, diet, etc.), given what they can't control (heredity).

    Obviously if our knowledge of training, nutrition, etc advances, then the part that we can control will allow better results. Our expectations should then increase, as Andrew and Fausto state. I don't think that most are looking for an ultimate theoretical answer here.

    Let me give a hypothetical situation: your friend has been training about as long as you. He is getting a lot better results than you, and your results have slowed a lot. It looks like you'll never get as big as him. Should you consider major changes in your training? Even if you are doing the same things as him, maybe a different training method would be better for you. Are your slower results due to genetics or to not finding the best training for you?

    I don't think that the state of the art is such that we have a tool available to tell us this at a level of accuracy that is much better than a wild guess.
     
  6. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Let me give a hypothetical situation: your friend has been training about as long as you. He is getting a lot better results than you, and your results have slowed a lot. It looks like you'll never get as big as him. Should you consider major changes in your training? Even if you are doing the same things as him, maybe a different training method would be better for you. Are your slower results due to genetics or to not finding the best training for you?</div>

    A very good point, I guess this is why it is so diffiult to have or demand that someone else does a &quot;vanilla&quot; work out as our genetic limitations or enhancements are all different, one has to undersatnd that there are common pointers, but tweaking under the understanding of the individual genetics is most important as one would find a so called &quot;sweet spot&quot; after various tweaks and techniques.

    This is why when one grasps that HST is a basic set of guidelines, (that in this case are applicable to all) and that being so, tweaking and adjusting to one's body type, muscle fibre type and response to different stimuli eventually gets one to the desired spot [​IMG]
     
  7. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Amen, Fausto! And the thing about trying to grow beyond whatever limits one has (naturally) is overtraining = then along comes HST. And tweaking HST slightly from the vanilla would be the route to your best routine; whatever way that works for you, but might not work for me.
    And not to forget, that whatever you do, may work well for a while, but need a changeup later.
     
  8. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    I'm dragging this thread up again as I have just discovered that since I last measured them back in Nov 2005, my wrists and ankles have grown. My wrists have gone up nearly half-an-inch and my ankles by just a bit more than that. Therefore, in the genetic potential calculators, all my predicted max measurements are now larger than they were back then.

    So, this is something else to bear in mind when checking one of the calculators knocking about, esp. if you are about to start a few years of regular and progressive training. It is something I didn't anticipate back then (and I don't think anyone else mentioned it either).
     
  9. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (Lol @ Feb. 18 2008,10:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm dragging this thread up again as I have just discovered that since I last measured them back in Nov 2005, my wrists and ankles have grown.</div>
    Edema of wrists and ankles is common in older men, Lol. Just take your metamucil, put your feet up, and get a lot of rest... [​IMG]
     
  10. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Darn it, TR; and I thought it was the happy result of a gazillion deads, squats and general iron hurling. Humph!

    You say te-may-tow,
    I say te-ma-toe,

    You write edema,
    I write oedema!


    Another one for your Brit/US English dict!  [​IMG]
     
  11. QuantumPositron

    QuantumPositron New Member

    Define? Not genetically based? Size estimators?

    Let us consult scripture.

    The Quantum Dictionary of Modern Bodybuilding states:

    Genetic Potential: [juh-net-ik puh-ten-shuhl] -noun. 1. The maximum degree of total body hypertrophy an individual bodybuilder can express under optimal training, nutrition, and recovery conditions at a specific age and sex.

    Optimal Training Conditions: [op-tuh-muhl trey-ning kuhn-dish-uhns] -noun 1. The combination of recovery, nutrition, and exercise practices, hitherto known or unknown, that result in the maximal daily hypertrophic rate an individual can present.

    The Theory of Genetic Potential states that an individual's maximal hypertrophy is ultimately constrained by a host of biological factors that are primarily inherited and thus largely immutable (see References). Many bodybuilders rebel against the concept due to a fear that their ideal physique, typically modeled after an IFBB Pro or comic book character, cannot be obtained. It is also used as a cop-out by the frustrated as to why size and/or strength gains are not forthcoming. Critics of Genetic Potential Theory point out that each person's hypertrophic best cannot be predetermined because each person's body is inherently unique. Anthropometric and statistical analysis has resulted in equations estimating maximal limb and torso girth based on quantifiable relationships derived from pre-steroid era bodybuilders (see below).

    On Body Size Estimators:

    Article describing the scientific basis of body size estimators.

    Body Size Estimator # 1

    Body Size Estimator #2

    Selected References

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Angiotensin-converting enzyme genotype affects the response of human skeletal muscle to functional overload.
    Folland J, Leach B, Little T, Hawker K, Myerson S, Montgomery H, Jones D.

    Chelsea School Research Centre, University of Brighton, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham and Centre for Cardiovascular Genetics, University College London, UK. [email protected]

    The response to strength training varies widely between individuals and is considerably influenced by genetic variables, which until now, have remained unidentified. The deletion (D), rather than the insertion (I), variant of the human angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) genotype is an important factor in the hypertrophic response of cardiac muscle to exercise and could also be involved in skeletal muscle hypertrophy - an important factor in the response to functional overload. Subjects were 33 healthy male volunteers with no experience of strength training. We examined the effect of ACE genotype upon changes in strength of quadriceps muscles in response to 9 weeks of specific strength training (isometric or dynamic). There was a significant interaction between ACE genotype and isometric training with greater strength gains shown by subjects with the D allele (mean +/- S.E.M.: II, 9.0+/-1.7 %; ID, 17.6 +/-2.2 %; DD, 14.9+/-1.3 %, ANOVA, P 0.05). A consistent genotype and training interaction (ID DD II) was observed across all of the strength measures, and both types of training. ACE genotype is the first genetic factor to be identified in the response of skeletal muscle to strength training. The association of the ACE I/D polymorphism with the responses of cardiac and skeletal muscle to functional overload indicates that they may share a common mechanism. These findings suggest a novel mechanism, involving the renin-angiotensin system, in the response of skeletal muscle to functional overload and may have implications for the management of conditions such as muscle wasting disorders, prolonged bed rest, ageing and rehabilitation, where muscle weakness may limit function.</div>



    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Variability in muscle size and strength gain after unilateral resistance training.
    Hubal MJ, Gordish-Dressman H, Thompson PD, Price TB, Hoffman EP, Angelopoulos TJ, Gordon PM, Moyna NM, Pescatello LS, Visich PS, Zoeller RF, Seip RL, Clarkson PM.

    Department of Exercise Science, Totman Building, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA 01003, USA.

    PURPOSE: This study assessed variability in muscle size and strength changes in a large cohort of men and women after a unilateral resistance training program in the elbow flexors. A secondary purpose was to assess sex differences in size and strength changes after training. METHODS: Five hundred eighty-five subjects (342 women, 243 men) were tested at one of eight study centers. Isometric (MVC) and dynamic strength (one-repetition maximum (1RM)) of the elbow flexor muscles of each arm and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) of the biceps brachii (to determine cross-sectional area (CSA)) were assessed before and after 12 wk of progressive dynamic resistance training of the nondominant arm. RESULTS: Size changes ranged from -2 to +59% (-0.4 to +13.6 cm), 1RM strength gains ranged from 0 to +250% (0 to +10.2 kg), and MVC changes ranged from -32 to +149% (-15.9 to +52.6 kg). Coefficients of variation were 0.48 and 0.51 for changes in CSA (P = 0.44), 1.07 and 0.89 for changes in MVC (P &lt; 0.01), and 0.55 and 0.59 for changes in CSA (P &lt; 0.01) in men and women, respectively. Men experienced 2.5% greater gains for CSA (P &lt; 0.01) compared with women. Despite greater absolute gains in men, relative increases in strength measures were greater in women versus men (P &lt; 0.05). CONCLUSION: Men and women exhibit wide ranges of response to resistance training, with some subjects showing little to no gain, and others showing profound changes, increasing size by over 10 cm and doubling their strength. Men had only a slight advantage in relative size gains compared with women, whereas women outpaced men considerably in relative gains in strength.</div>

    More References:

    ACTN3 genotype is associated with increases in muscle strength in response to resistance training in women.

    ACTN3 (R577X) genotype is associated with fiber type distribution.

    ACTN3 and MLCK genotype associations with exertional muscle damage.

    Circulating angiotensin converting enzyme activity is correlated with muscle strength.

    Muscle strength response to strength training is influenced by insulin-like growth factor 1 genotype in older adults.

    IGF-II gene region polymorphisms related to exertional muscle damage.

    Influence of promoter region variants of insulin-like growth factor pathway genes on the strength-training response of muscle phenotypes in older adults.
     
  12. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (Lol @ Feb. 18 2008,10:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm dragging this thread up again as I have just discovered that since I last measured them back in Nov 2005, my wrists and ankles have grown. My wrists have gone up nearly half-an-inch and my ankles by just a bit more than that. Therefore, in the genetic potential calculators, all my predicted max measurements are now larger than they were back then.

    So, this is something else to bear in mind when checking one of the calculators knocking about, esp. if you are about to start a few years of regular and progressive training. It is something I didn't anticipate back then (and I don't think anyone else mentioned it either).</div>
    I have had the same thing happen. It mystified me because from what I've read, it doesn't seem like the muscles in the wrist could experience much hypertrophy. However... apparently, mine have, or the bones grew, who knows. I experienced the same amount of growth that you've reported.

    Weird.
     
  13. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    Bone density and mass dramatically increases with chronic resistance training. A strong lifter will have much stronger bones than untrained. So its not too surprising.
     
  14. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Remember, density and mass =/= area
     
  15. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    <div>
    (Aaron_F @ Feb. 18 2008,19:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Remember, density and mass =/= area</div>
    True. But over time a small increase in bone circumference wouldn't be too far-fetched of an adaptation.
     
  16. QuantumPositron

    QuantumPositron New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have had the same thing happen. It mystified me because from what I've read, it doesn't seem like the muscles in the wrist could experience much hypertrophy. However... apparently, mine have, or the bones grew, who knows. I experienced the same amount of growth that you've reported.

    Weird.</div>

    Ditto. Before I started back up again I had a metal wristband watch adjusted to my wrist. The fit was snug. Now I cannot clamp it on without it impinging on the tendons. I left it on at work for 10 minutes one day and my hand started to tingle and turn colors. I've made a note to get it adjusted back to its previous girth. I haven't got a lot of muscle near my wrists. Really just bone and tendon. I think perhaps the static loading we put on our forearms during upper body work thickens the connective tissue. Most of the muscles responsible for finger flexion are inside the forearm, the tendons running the length of the ulna and into the hand.
     
  17. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    <div>
    (QuantumPositron @ Feb. 18 2008,22:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have had the same thing happen. It mystified me because from what I've read, it doesn't seem like the muscles in the wrist could experience much hypertrophy. However... apparently, mine have, or the bones grew, who knows. I experienced the same amount of growth that you've reported.

    Weird.</div>

    Ditto. Before I started back up again I had a metal wristband watch adjusted to my wrist. The fit was snug. Now I cannot clamp it on without it impinging on the tendons. I left it on at work for 10 minutes one day and my hand started to tingle and turn colors. I've made a note to get it adjusted back to its previous girth. I haven't got a lot of muscle near my wrists. Really just bone and tendon. I think perhaps the static loading we put on our forearms during upper body work thickens the connective tissue. Most of the muscles responsible for finger flexion are inside the forearm, the tendons running the length of the ulna and into the hand.</div>
    My watch fits just the same over the past 16 months. [​IMG]

    That's an interesting story to hear though! [​IMG]
     
  18. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Add plates to the bar!

    I thought I'd measured wrong or forgotten what the number was! So even us old duffers can grow a bone... [​IMG]
     
  19. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Feb. 19 2008,14:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Add plates to the bar!

    I thought I'd measured wrong or forgotten what the number was! So even us old duffers can grow a bone... [​IMG]</div>
    What, even without extra test?! Oo-er missus!  [​IMG]  [​IMG]

    Hey Colby, I would have thought some heavy farmer's walks would have a similar effect. You still doing them?
     
  20. lcars

    lcars New Member

    <div>
    (scientific muscle @ Feb. 18 2008,19:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bone density and mass dramatically increases with chronic resistance training. A strong lifter will have much stronger bones than untrained. So its not too surprising.</div>
    this is what i try to explain to older people all the time, especially menopausal women as their bone density rapidly decreases when hormones decline such as estrogen which is very important as regards to bone density.


    on topic, ive always blamed my weight gain problems on crappy genetics, but it in the end it was mainly my diet that held me back.
     

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