From HST to stregth training

[Larzan]

Hi,
I have now been training with HST since february '05 and got exellent results. I modified or "fine tuned" the HST program a little bit and changed the negatives from the last weeks to more strength oriented program where I do 3 reps on the squat, deadlifts and bench.
Now I have been planning to try "real" strength training for a while because I want to test my potential on strenght side. I think I have rather good results on squat and deadlift already taking into concideration that I have been training bodybuilding style before.
I have few options for the first streght program; modified version of 5x5 and more modified version of Korte 3x3 and some kind of combination of Korte 3x3 and HST which is still "under costruction" at the moment and I ask comments for that later on. Comments on these are very welcome!
1. Modified 5x5 program
I was planning to have following training schedule:
Mon: Squat, speed on deadlift
Wed Bench, speed on squat
Fri Deadlift, speed on bench
I was planning to use following percents on the program.
Week. sets * reps * percentage from 1RM
1. 4*6*70
2. 4*6*73
3. 4*6*75
4. 5*5*78
5. 5*5*80
6. light week
7. 5*70, 75, 80, 85, 83
8. 4-5*73, 78, 83, 88, 85
9. 3-5*70, 80, 90, 88, 85
10. light week
In speed training I was planning to do 6-10*1-2*55-65%
After week 10. I was planning to do peaking with following scenario:
Week11 testing of the 1RM 1*90, 1*95, 1*100, ..., 1* new 1RM
Week12 2*2*90, 3*1*95, 2*2*90 of the new 1RM
Week13 2*3*80, 2*2*85, 2*3*80 of the new 1RM
I was planning to repeat the three week peaking for three times (nine weeks total).
2. Slightly modified Korte 3 x 3
Another option I was thinking is modified Korte 3x3 program with speed training included. Like this:
Monday: Squat 5-8 x 5, Bench 6-8 x 5, speed on deadlift (6-10*1-2*55-65%)
Wed: Squat 5-8 x 5, Deadlift 5-8 x 5, speed on bench
Fri: Deadlift 5-8 x 5, Bench 6-8 x 5, Speed on squat
Percentages on volume phase would be following counted from projected maximum.
Week 1: 58%
Week 2: 60%
Week 3: 62%
Week 4: 64%
On the next phase I was plannig to continue with following:
1a Squat 3 x 3 60%, Bench 5 x 4 60%, Dead 1-2 x 1 80%
1b Squat 3 x 3 60%, Bench 1-2 x 1 80%, Dead 3 x 3 60%
1c Squat 1-2 x 1 80%, Bench 5 x 4 60%, Dead 3 x 3 60%
2a Squat 3 x 3 60%, Bench 5 x 4 60%, Dead 1-2 x 1 85%
2b Squat 3 x 3 60%, Bench 1-2 x 1 85%, Dead 3 x 3 60%
2c Squat 1-2 x 1 85%, Bench 5 x 4 60%, Dead 3 x 3 60%
3a Squat 3 x 3 60%, Bench 5 x 4 60%, Dead 1-2 x 1 90%
3b Squat 3 x 3 60%, Bench 1-2 x 1 90%, Dead 3 x 3 60%
3c Squat 1-2 x 1 90%, Bench 5 x 4 60%, Dead 3 x 3 60%
4a Squat 3 x 3 60%, Bench 5 x 4 60%, Dead 1-2 x 1 95%
4b Squat 3 x 3 60%, Bench 1-2 x 1 95%, Dead 3 x 3 60%
4c Squat 1-2 x 1 95%, Bench 5 x 4 60%, Dead 3 x 3 60%
I don't know if I should add speed training also on this phase?
I was also wondering should those percentages be higher on both volume and intensity period on those 3x3 sets?
Which seems better option for a gyu who has been training more or less bodybuilding style and with rather low volumes?

 

[Chthonian]

Stop toying with the program. Do the 5x5 as it's prescribed. It has worked for years upon years. It won't stop now.

 

[Larzan]

Quote[/b] (Chthonian @ Sep. 27 2005,8:07)]Stop toying with the program. Do the 5x5 as it's prescribed. It has worked for years upon years. It won't stop now.

Well, that was a comment. Propably not something I expected but comment anyway. Have you ever thought that we are individuals with different genetics and we might get better results if we modify programs more suitable for us.

Next you tell me to do HST as is and not do any modifications on that either, right?

 

[Chthonian]

Have you ever thought that genetics aren't going to make or break a program, and that the 5x5 routine has been tried and true, working for numerous people for years on end now? 'cause maybe if you thought a bit more about that, you'd realize that you don't need to tweak it or complicate it, like you're doing.
HST doesn't need to be modified. Many people come out of the original M/W/F plan with great results, and never have to stray. I would only toy with it after trying it the original way, in an attempt to find if something can work better for you due to individual tolerances (i.e., ability to train more frequently, use more volume).
Why not try the original version of 5x5 (as is advised with all routines) before you decide to mess with it at all?

Quote[/b] ]Have you ever thought that we are individuals with different genetics and we might get better results if we modify programs more suitable for us.

A question mark belongs there, not a period.

 

[Larzan]

Quote[/b] (Chthonian @ Sep. 27 2005,3:58)]Have you ever thought that genetics aren't going to make or break a program, and that the 5x5 routine has been tried and true, working for numerous people for years on end now? 'cause maybe if you thought a bit more about that, you'd realize that you don't need to tweak it or complicate it, like you're doing.
HST doesn't need to be modified. Many people come out of the original M/W/F plan with great results, and never have to stray. I would only toy with it after trying it the original way, in an attempt to find if something can work better for you due to individual tolerances (i.e., ability to train more frequently, use more volume).
Why not try the original version of 5x5 (as is advised with all routines) before you decide to mess with it at all?

Quote[/b] ]Have you ever thought that we are individuals with different genetics and we might get better results if we modify programs more suitable for us.

A question mark belongs there, not a period.

I am not going to argue with an 18 year old boy on this. I have been training for over 10 years now and spent thousands of hours studying about training, nutrition, physiology etc. I know quite well what works for me and what doesn't

If you think that any training is perfect in original form IMO you are totally wrong. If for training programs are not modified or tweaked programs better than current ones are never invented. On the other hand original 5x5 might give excellent results for some people while for others the volume is too high. Some make good results with only few sets on program some don't. Why do we even need a discussion forum if programs should be used always in original form without modifications?

You said that HST doesn't need to be modified. Ok, it works well as it is, but with the modifications the results with the program can be even better.

Edit: Just as an example; I have improved my 10 rep squat maximum from 365 to 460lbs, 10RM on deadlift from 360 to 460lbs and 10RM on bench from 225 to 285 lbs with my modified HST program. I started with the program in the end of february '05 and I am lifetime natural.

If you only want to check out the grammar from peoples texts please go to somewhere else.

The bottom line is that I got you opinnion and it's worth nothing to me. If you don't have anything else to comment please don't.

 

[Chthonian]

Okay, so age is some indication of knowledge, now? True, you can obtain more knowledge and experience over the years, but don't discredit what I say since I'm 18. Unless, of course, you're afraid to admit I'm superior to you in every way. Then keep refuting what I say and twisting things around.

I never said anything was perfect in its original form. I said that there's no reason to butcher a program you have yet to try on its own. If you know what works for you so well, then why the hell are you asking things like this?

Quote[/b] ]I was also wondering should those percentages be higher on both volume and intensity period on those 3x3 sets?

I thought you knew perfectly well what works for you. What happened?

The volume can be too high if you're not adjusted to it. You can work up your individual tolerance, so the volume, in the end, shouldn't be too high for anyone. It's just something you have to work up to.

Yes, I did say HST works well as it is. Good job! You paid attention! Now stick with me here...I never said it was optimal! Isn't that funny? I wasn't arguing that the results wouldn't be better if the program is modified!

You know what's even funnier? I went on to say:

" I would only toy with it after trying it the original way, in an attempt to find if something can work better for you due to individual tolerances (i.e., ability to train more frequently, use more volume)."

Hm...well, from what I gather from my own posting, is that I acknowledged the fact that the program could work more effectively for someone, due to certain variables and levels of conditioning. Wow! Isn't that something? So you're just rambling on about stuff that I essentially pointed out already, but you're missing one key thing:

TRY THE PROGRAM WITHOUT BUTCHERING IT FIRST! If you know what works for you so well, don't ask questions. If you're unsure of your ability to design a routine (you obviously are) then stick with the original. See how it plays out for you, and adjust from there.

It's funny, all the big names here on the HST boards say the same thing of their "program" (really just a set of principles) - try it out the original way first! Adjust accordingly.

But why listen to me? I'm just an eighteen year old boy, right? Or hey, I might be some creepy bisexual pedophile who gets kicks out of researching training and nutrition online in between my kidnappings, right?

Quote[/b] ]The bottom line is that I got you opinnion and it's worth nothing to me.

The above is what you said. Below is how it should have been written:

The bottom line is that I got your opinion, and I value it greatly. You're such a great help, and I don't know what I would do without you. Please accept my most humble apologies for being an arrogant, irrational, senseless @$$.

To which I would respond: No.

 

[Larzan]

I have to say that you are good writer and some how you earned my respect with you answer.

Still, I don't agree with you on everything. I think that many of the programs needs to be modified even if you haven't tried them before. I at least know that I am not very used to train wiht high volume programs and it is better for me to try for example 5x5 program with lower volume first.

I just wanted some comments on the modifications I was planning but it seems that no one really has any opinnion if modifications I made might work or not?

Quote[/b] (Chthonian @ Sep. 28 2005,9:19)]Okay, so age is some indication of knowledge, now? True, you can obtain more knowledge and experience over the years, but don't discredit what I say since I'm 18. Unless, of course, you're afraid to admit I'm superior to you in every way.

Somehow you remind me of myself when I was at your age. I also had strong opinnions and I tought I knew everything.

I am not saying that you cannot know anything because you are 18 but I might say that you are missing experience and after you have gained it you are able to give an advise based on you experience combined with knowledge gained from books, not just based on training theory or comments from others.

Quote[/b] (Chthonian @ Sep. 28 2005,9:19)]If you know what works for you so well, then why the hell are you asking things like this?

I wanted opinnion from others to learn more. I am not so superior to others that and I still after years of training well and eating well want to be better, train better, eat better and so on. I know quite well what works for me but still I don't lose anything if I ask opinnion from others also. I thought someone here in more experienced or have at least comments how to make my modifications work even better.

Quote[/b] (Chthonian @ Sep. 28 2005,9:19)]I thought you knew perfectly well what works for you. What happened?

I only wanted second opinnion. What do you think these forums are for?

Quote[/b] (Chthonian @ Sep. 28 2005,9:19)]The volume can be too high if you're not adjusted to it. You can work up your individual tolerance, so the volume, in the end, shouldn't be too high for anyone. It's just something you have to work up to.

OK, now I agree with you and that's exactly the reason why I wanted to modify the program(s).

Quote[/b] (Chthonian @ Sep. 28 2005,9:19)]TRY THE PROGRAM WITHOUT BUTCHERING IT FIRST! If you know what works for you so well, don't ask questions.

As I said before I think these forums are for discussion for questions, for sharing our knowledge. I want an optimal program for me not a program that works quite good or something like that.

Quote[/b] (Chthonian @ Sep. 28 2005,9:19)]If you're unsure of your ability to design a routine (you obviously are) then stick with the original.

I am not unsure but there is always something to learn and there is always room for improvements even if I know what works for me quite well. You are not forced to answer any "stupid" questions.

 

[Jester]

Quote[/b] (Larzan @ Sep. 29 2005,1:52)]

Quote[/b] (Chthonian @ Sep. 28 2005,9:19)]TRY THE PROGRAM WITHOUT BUTCHERING IT FIRST! If you know what works for you so well, don't ask questions.

As I said before I think these forums are for discussion for questions, for sharing our knowledge. I want an optimal program for me not a program that works quite good or something like that.

I believe the point that Chthonian is making is that you cannot know how the starting program is different to your 'optimal' program if you haven't tried it yet . . .

...and he makes sense here. How do you know that the standard program is not your 'optimal' one?

 

[Chthonian]

Ah, you gained my respect as well - you didn't get too offended by my harsh responses.

Always a good sign, when someone can put up with a little pushing and shoving.

Oh, the comment about being superior was entirely psuedo-arrogance. Sarcasm is great, especially when one holds themselves in such high esteem. It usually drives people up a wall when they think I'm serious.

That being said, welcome to the forums!

Now, on to the program: If you don't feel you can handle the original 5x5 routine's volume (my guess is you'll try the single-factor version first, since it's best to milk as many gains as you can from a more simple program) then you can tweak it to accomodate your needs. However, I still support the idea of trying it out the original way, starting a few incretments behind your maxes, and ramping up each week. Go with that and see how it feels.

If you start to feel it's too much or too little, come back and I can help you figure out how to fix the problem.

From what I gather, you want to add speed work M/W/F. I know in WSB they avoid doing the deadlift too frequently, and this is for good reason. The lift is very taxing, especially if you're putting up decent numbers. That said, if you insist on speed work, you may want to focus on using the olympic lifts that were originally prescribed for the program. They'll teach explosiveness and develop a good deal of strength.

Now that I reread what your training, I realize you're doing no rowing. I'd have to say you'd be making a mistake by not doing pendlay rows (bentover rows where your torso is parallel to the floor, each rep preferably pulled from the ground) - many don't realize that increasing your opposing muscles in the same plane (horizontal) will help out opposing lifts - i.e., rowing will help benching. Besides, it will keep much imbalances in check.

Were you not to row, your idea doesn't seem like a bad one. However, I don't know if you could handle speed work thrice weekly, on top of an already loaded program. You could always drop the volume from 5x5 to something like 3x5. The numbers aren't really important, just the progression. You might gain more size, were you to use slightly more volume, but the strength should honestly still come, especially if you're doing the speed work correctly (which it looks like you plan to).

I'd say, go for your suggested modification, but make sure to do bentover rows as much as you do bench presses. Keep it balanced nicely. Maybe even avoid training the deadlift and stick with squatting and maybe sub in some good mornings. Your deadlift will go up without training it. Worst case, every two months (or ten weeks for you, when you test new RMs) try out your deadlift, and cut out some excess volume to allow for it, so you can see if it really did progress.

Finally, if you want alternatives to deadlifting, as I said, do some explosive pulling, especially in place of speed work. High pulls, cleans, clean & jerk etc.

 

[Larzan]

7-->

Quote[/b] (Jester @ Sep. 29 2005,8

7)]I believe the point that Chthonian is making is that you cannot know how the starting program is different to your 'optimal' program if you haven't tried it yet . . .
...and he makes sense here. How do you know that the standard program is not your 'optimal' one?

Ok, I found a forum where nobody really wants to answer anything.

Based on my experience I can be 100% sure that standard 5x5 is not optimal for me even without trying it first.

I really don't need to try every single program in standard form in order to make a conclusion that program was not optimal for me.

At least I learned something; It is waste of time to ask anything from here.

Edit: It seems that I was wrong again... I got the answer to my question just after sending my reply.

 

[Larzan]

Quote[/b] (Chthonian @ Sep. 29 2005,8:18)]Ah, you gained my respect as well - you didn't get too offended by my harsh responses.

Always a good sign, when someone can put up with a little pushing and shoving.

Thanks for excellent answer. Something like this I expected.

I let you know the results I had with the program.

 

[Jester]

It was actually a legitimate question.

Check this SST forum, and you'll see I asked about strength training recently.

Admittedly I've altered the program recommended, because I don't have the proper technique downpat for Cleans and High Pulls yet.

But other than that I'm going to try out the 5x5, and see how it goes before trying to edit it.

Like I said, legitimate question, I'm actually curious to know how you know it isn't optimal for you...?

 

[Larzan]

Quote[/b] (Jester @ Sep. 29 2005,8:36)]Like I said, legitimate question, I'm actually curious to know how you know it isn't optimal for you...?

Well, I have been training now for over 10 years and I know that I have problems with recovery when using high volume programs.

Of course my body adapts to the higher volume but most probably if I would train with original 5x5 I would end up overtrained very fast.

I also added speed training there because based on the earlier experience I get better results on strength perioids when I add speed training on the program.

 

[Larzan]

Quote[/b] (Chthonian @ Sep. 29 2005,8:18)]

Quote[/b] ]Now that I reread what your training, I realize you're doing no rowing. I'd have to say you'd be making a mistake by not doing pendlay rows (bentover rows where your torso is parallel to the floor, each rep preferably pulled from the ground) - many don't realize that increasing your opposing muscles in the same plane (horizontal) will help out opposing lifts - i.e., rowing will help benching.

I was thinking of that too. I think that I have to probably add some rows on the program as you suggested.

Quote[/b] ]Your deadlift will go up without training it. Worst case, every two months (or ten weeks for you, when you test new RMs) try out your deadlift, and cut out some excess volume to allow for it, so you can see if it really did progress.

I have noticed before that I almost get better results on the deadlift if I don't do it on every training session. With HST I did it in every second training session with good results. Maybe I reduce the deadlift frequency also or replace it with other options you mentioned if the planned seems too much.