savagebeast
New Member
From the First 5x5 Cycle thread:
Aaron, I'm not trying to argue with you here, just seeking some clarification about loading & deloading, dual factor training, and why this is not recommended "for beginers to intermediate lifters."
Here are a few quotes from Pendlay. While I know he is not in favor of strict and carefully planned out periodization and unloading/deloading schemes for beginners and intermediates, it seems to me that he achieves the same effect, just without the meticulous planning.
(http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=401451&postcount=2)
Isn't this basically the same as dual factor or loading/deloading, just without the fancy periodization and advanced planning?
[b said:Quote[/b] ]Your kidding right?[b said:Quote[/b] (Hypertrophier @ Oct. 03 2005,9:39)]Okay, you know some names, but do you know what they say?
You think load and unload is complicated? Every load and unload article deals at first with the history and some filling lines. Summed up, it´s just this: Do something, then do less. That is load and unload. After you load and unload, you load and unload again. No magic, and no state to reach. If you focus on a state you could get some real problems, cause the individuals aren´t the same. So they have to use their instinct, and you should know that, after reading all your lines from these authorities. Perhaps you should search some more about the topic, especially some other authors who don´t make it that complicated.
Load and unload. you can relate this into a single session, micro or macro cycle
now what is the point of dual factor? maybe its to seperate it into a macro cycle focus, with a desire to instill adequate fatigue to get maximal supercompensation.?
What level of loading will achieve this?
what level of unloading will achieve this?
what level of fatigue needs to be achieved?
how will you measure this fatigue?
Why do the vast majority of the training world not recommend this for beginers to intermediate trainees?
Aaron, I'm not trying to argue with you here, just seeking some clarification about loading & deloading, dual factor training, and why this is not recommended "for beginers to intermediate lifters."
Here are a few quotes from Pendlay. While I know he is not in favor of strict and carefully planned out periodization and unloading/deloading schemes for beginners and intermediates, it seems to me that he achieves the same effect, just without the meticulous planning.
(http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=401451&postcount=2)
(http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalel....8&st=20)[b said:Quote[/b] ]lets say a person has a previous best of 5 sets of five weight with 300lbs, and has done one set of five with 325lbs for this person i may start with mondays weight of 285lbs, wendsdays weight of 255lbs, and on friday work up to a set of five with 310lbs,
...
with people new to this program i usually use it for 6-7 weeks, because we start more conservatively and it takes longer to get the benefits. with people who have done it before i generally go with 4 weeks at a time and go with setting records on monday and friday of week 3, week 4 is to try even more weight if week 3 was succesful, if it wasnt, then try record weights again. after this routine is over, we drop the frequency to about two workouts a week or even a bit less , and drop volume usually to 3 sets of 3.
the first week, we use the same weight as on the last monday of the 5 sets of five workout. this helps with recuperation. then, as in before we add weight each workout, this time aiming to break records on the fourth or fifth 3 sets of 3 workout.
sometimes we cycle on down to 1 set of three for two or three workouts, other times we have an offloading week then start with the five sets of five again.
(I can't find a link but I saved it on my computer)[b said:Quote[/b] ]the EASIEST method we use for squats, and the one which rip used for beginners, is a simple pyramid program, the weights are pyramided BOTH monday and friday... and another leg exercise is used for wednesday, usually front squats for the young and athletically minded, sometimes leg press for the old and feeble.
...
at some point, of course, this doesnt work anymore. so now we change the monday workout to 5 sets of 5, still with heavy front squats or for some lighter back squats on wednesday, and the same pyramid on friday, trying for one top set of 5. the 5 sets on monday with the same weiight will be some amount less than the current personal record for one set of 5.
usually with this raise in volume, the weights are set somewhat lighter than they were, and people are given a few weeks to work back to their personal records, then try to go past them, invariably they will pass them, and invariably eventually they will stall again...
at this point we usually lower the volume of training, raise the intensity, in some form we will go with lower reps, lower amounts of sets, cut out a day of squatting, something to allow a raising of the numbers... again, the numbers will raise for a while, then stall again.
a this point, another raise in volume is needed, and at this point we will go to the program that most usually associate with the "5 by 5"... squatting 5 sets of 5 with the same weight 3 times a week, lighter on wednesday and heavier on mon and fri.
How is any of this different from dual factor? The way I see it, Pendlay's training philosophy isn't all that complicated: start off with linear progression until you hit a wall and can't increase the weights any more, then alternate between periods of high volume and high intensity. During the high volume periods, it is hard to achieve PRs because of the accumulated fatigue. The high intensity periods that follow allow for supercompensation and achieving new PRs.[b said:Quote[/b] ]When a 16 year old starts, a beginner, they start out on a purely linear program, no variation, no periodization. They squat up to a max set of 5 two days per week, Monday and Friday, and do front squats on Wednesday. Each Monday and Friday if they were successful the workout before, they try 5 or 10 more pounds. If they only got 3 or 4 reps on the last squat day, they try the same weight over. Simple as that. That usually works for anywhere from a month to a year. When it stops working, when they stop increasing the weight at least 5 lbs a week, we switch to something different.
Usually we go to doing 5 sets of 5 on Monday, front squatting on Wednesday, then work to a max set of 5 on Friday. So a guy who can squat say 100 kilos for 5, when starting this program, would do maybe 80 or 85kilos for 5 sets of 5 on Monday, then front squat on wed, then try 102 kilos for a set of 5 on Friday. Pretty much that simple. We will stay with this basic program for a long time, and even advanced lifters come back to it often. To keep it working we do different things. If a lifter is stalled, we might drop all weights back 20 kilos, and work back up 5 kilos at a time coming back to PR levels in 3-4 weeks and hopefully passing them. We might add chains to the bar on one day, usually Monday, or bands. We might go to 2 or 3 work sets on Friday for 3-4 weeks. We might try for max triples, doubles, or max single on Friday for a few weeks. But we still are sticking to the basic plan of a high volume day and a day of "max effort" or trying for a personal record.
....
Everything stops working eventually. When this happens, we will go to some longer term planning. For instance, we might do 5 sets of 5 Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, for 3-4 weeks. Obviously with this type of volume, the weights will be a little lower and you probably won’t make PR's, you’ll be tired. After a few weeks of this, we will go to something like 2-3 sets of 3 twice a week for 3-4 weeks... less volume allowing for recovery and almost always improved strength by the end.
All subsequent programs we do are a variation on this last theme, a few weeks of higher workload, being tired and sore, followed by decreased workload and trying for personal records at the end.
Isn't this basically the same as dual factor or loading/deloading, just without the fancy periodization and advanced planning?