Cut or Bulk first?

Discussion in 'Basic Training Principles and Methods' started by XFatMan, Jan 16, 2008.

  1. XFatMan

    XFatMan New Member

    Situation: John Doe is at 20% body fat and wants to start lifting. He has no idea whether he wants to gain mass or lose fat first.

    Should he cut first and then bulk?
    Should he bulk first and then cut?
    What's your opinion and why?
     
  2. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    No person should bulk from 20% body fat.
     
  3. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    I think I am... [​IMG]
     
  4. BAX67

    BAX67 New Member

    Nice job on changing your body!!! 42% bodyfat down to 17%. Awesome. Keep cutting.
     
  5. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    I think it would depend on how much muscle he is carrying. No point in cutting down from only 20% if you're just going to be revealing a bean pole. Hah.
     
  6. DWhite2741

    DWhite2741 New Member

    Bulk is my favorite! I would rather be a beast then a cut weakling. Never seen anybody that was cut squat a thousand pounds. Of corse there can be phases of bulking and cutting. To be honest I believe if you can't do a pull-up or any other type of bodyweight excersize then you need to cut.
     
  7. Bulldog

    Bulldog Active Member

    For a new lifter I would recommend they run with a maintenance diet for the first couple of months. I think there would be some beneficial recomposition that would take place without limiting calories.
     
  8. stevejones

    stevejones Member

    Opinion: Cut until you're at 10% and then slowlybulk until you're 15%

    Why: I began a bulk when I was about 18%...when I finished I was about 30%...hard to lose all that fat without losing muscle...also get bored of doing the same thing (cutting) for such a long time without ever getting more muscle or stronger
     
  9. the_dark_master

    the_dark_master New Member

    Ditto Jonesy [​IMG]
     
  10. XFatMan

    XFatMan New Member

    <div>
    (BAX67 @ Jan. 16 2008,20:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Nice job on changing your body!!! 42% bodyfat down to 17%. Awesome. Keep cutting.</div>
    Thanks. I wasn’t able to work out at all since November. In compensation, I’ve eaten like a horse. The result is that I’m now at 21.1%. I started working out again on December 31, 2007 and want to get down to something around 15% by June.

    I believe bulking doesn’t bring much at high body fat percentages as most people would gain more fat than lean mass. The leaner people are when starting a bulk cycle, the more lean mass they can add provided they have a sound lifting program and are eating right. This has no scientific background – it’s just what I have observed in men who work out at the gym where I go.

    This one is my humble opinion: if you’re plain fat, who’d even notice the effort it took to put on that pound of lean mass? All, including yourself, will see more progress during a couple of cutting cycles. After all, if you can’t see any progress, why do it at all? That’s reason number one why most people give up after a short time. Also here, I have no scientific background for this, but I have observed it over the past 18 months or so.
     
  11. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    I want to be the first to say 'welcome back Steve'! [​IMG]

    I'm actually bulking over a bulk because I've been hitting the genetic walls time and again after trying program after program and not gaining any significant muscle - due to age, I'm sure. This is with a little legal assistance that doesn't seem to be working very well - but I had to try. I'm gonna hate the cut upcoming, I'm sure.
     
  12. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    <div>
    (stevejones @ Jan. 17 2008,02:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Opinion: Cut until you're at 10% and then slowlybulk until you're 15%

    Why: I began a bulk when I was about 18%...when I finished I was about 30%...hard to lose all that fat without losing muscle...also get bored of doing the same thing (cutting) for such a long time without ever getting more muscle or stronger</div>
    I completely agree with Steve Jones' post.
     
  13. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (XFatMan @ Jan. 17 2008,05:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (BAX67 @ Jan. 16 2008,20:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Nice job on changing your body!!! 42% bodyfat down to 17%. Awesome. Keep cutting.</div>
    Thanks. I wasn’t able to work out at all since November. In compensation, I’ve eaten like a horse. The result is that I’m now at 21.1%. I started working out again on December 31, 2007 and want to get down to something around 15% by June.</div>
    Well, if we are talking about you rather than just some hypothetical situation, then I would definitely suggest cutting first.
     
  14. XFatMan

    XFatMan New Member

    <div>
    (Totentanz @ Jan. 17 2008,10:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well, if we are talking about you rather than just some hypothetical situation, then I would definitely suggest cutting first.</div>
    No, no, it's really some hypothetical situation. For myself speaking, I've been cutting since the very beginning, and I think I'll have to stay on that road for some more time.
     
  15. jwbond

    jwbond New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Jan. 17 2008,06:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I want to be the first to say 'welcome back Steve'!  [​IMG]

    I'm actually bulking over a bulk because I've been hitting the genetic walls time and again after trying program after program and not gaining any significant muscle - due to age, I'm sure. This is with a little legal assistance that doesn't seem to be working very well - but I had to try. I'm gonna hate the cut upcoming, I'm sure.</div>
    quad, I hope you arent still messing with the superdrol nonsense. It is a steroid and one that is legal as it wasn't considered a good option for healthy use.

    Why not just get a perscription for some real test at your age? It is safer, the results will be better, and a doctor will be monitoring it!


    Sorry to hijack the thread, but quad is cool and I never want to see anyone come into potential health problems.
     
  16. jwbond

    jwbond New Member

    btw, I voted to cut then bulk...

    In the begining of my weight lifting I never ate enough to put on weight. After I had the eureka moment of you need to gain weight to gain muscle I went off bulking for years.

    Now I am a bit older and a bit wiser. Bulking is necessary (and fun as hell), but if you want people to know you lift weights when you are outside of the gym then you need to slim down. The really cut guys look bigger than they are!
     
  17. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Why not just get a perscription for some real test at your age?</div>
    Money. I've qualitifed, but it's danged expensive for little return. They won't give you enough to make you highly anabolic. The other option is just risky, thanks to the government.
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> but if you want people to know you lift weights when you are outside of the gym then you need to slim down.  The really cut guys look bigger than they are! </div> Yeah, in summer when the shirt comes off. But even with the gut, the big guys are still the big guys and no doubt that there is some power there.
    If you're looking for dates though, cutting is the better option.
     
  18. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Unless you are really fat, the bigger guy will look better than the cut guy when in clothing. The only time the cut guy is going to look great is when he gets to take his shirt off... and that only really happens at the beach. It's not like you can go shirtless in your day-to-day. And really, if you are cruising for chicks or whatever, by the time the clothes come off, she'll have already decided to do what she's going to do to you, she's not going to immediately stop because you don't have paper thin abdominal skinfolds.
    I guess you could make sure to constantly lift your shirt to show people your abs, and maybe in that case it would look better than the fatter guy, but if someone was constantly doing that, I'm fairly certain the people around them would eventually euthanize the person.
     
  19. QuantumPositron

    QuantumPositron New Member

    I would say cut. Because of motivation.

    If someone is self-conscious about their bodyfat, cutting will give them the confidence they are looking for. We may or may not live by a beach or a water park or a sunset strip, but that doesn't change one's self-perception. Moreover higher bodyfat levels also show up in the face, neck, etc. If someone cuts first they will feel good and they will have dietary discipline. When they begin to add muscle it will show right away, offering further encouragement.

    For a novice it is important to succeed early on.

    Bulking on the other hand, will only add bodyfat to someone who may be desperate to lose what they already have. And while bulking does require dietary control, it doesn't require dietary restriction the same way cutting does. Maybe I should find the study before I say this, but I have seen it written that research shows that 10% bodyfat is optimal for gaining muscle. The reason given was metabolic and hormonal properties. yeah, i think im gonna find that study.

    I say cut first.
     
  20. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Much better to cut if you need to when you start training as you will benefit from noobie gains in strength and muscle size whilst dropping fat.

    Cutting, once you are well conditioned to training, is much less likely to lead to any lean tissue growth along the way and only slight (if any) strength increases (depending on your style of training).
     

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