alternate/don't alternate exercises?

Discussion in 'Basic Training Principles and Methods' started by terp, Jan 4, 2007.

  1. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">(scientific muscle @ Jan. 06 2007,17:32)
    QUOTE
    For now I will stick to my half dozen exercises and see how far it takes me. I am not nearly big enough to worry about lagging bodyparts yet. I firstly have to have huge bodyparts in order to see what is lagging in comparison.

    Once I can do huge amounts in squats, rows, dips, chins, presses, etc....I will assess my physique and see what if anything is lacking.

    and


    QUOTE
    Specializing on arms this cycle...


    Another question comes to mind, isnt this conflicting statements?
    </div>
    I have done three cycles without much direct arm training....I am trying to see what putting in direct arm training for a whole cycle will do. I am still not alternating any exercises. I may also throw in direct calf training or ab training someday, but for now just arms.
     
  2. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">A recent report shows that the less complex movements happen sooner than more complex. With this is mind it appears that a simple exercie like Biceps curl will have a faster learning curve than squats. In fact this is why I said 2 to 4 weeks as the 2 week is more related to simple movements where the 4 weeks is related to more complex.</div>
    WOW!!! That is so MEGA important to know for anyone who is beyond the early stages of BB'ing!
    Thanx Dan!
     
  3. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Jan. 07 2007,14:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">A recent report shows that the less complex movements happen sooner than more complex. With this is mind it appears that a simple exercie like Biceps curl will have a faster learning curve than squats. In fact this is why I said 2 to 4 weeks as the 2 week is more related to simple movements where the 4 weeks is related to more complex.</div>
    WOW!!! That is so MEGA important to know for anyone who is beyond the early stages of BB'ing!
    Thanx Dan!</div>
    WOW!!! I'm glad I could MEGA enlighten you

    No prob Quad!
     
  4. need2eat

    need2eat New Member

    <div>
    (Fausto @ Jan. 07 2007,11:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The only disadvantage (again as mentioned by Dan) is that each exercise will only get used once per week, also the opportunity for progression is spaced out every 7 days.</div>
    Again, maybe I will point this out in hopes of a response.

    By thinking in terms of a single week, your right, you would target the muscle once that seven day period, every other week.

    Now if instead of alternating exercises, you think in terms of overlapping two routines, by staggering the second routine, you will hit every exercise twice in a seven day period.

    This works into the frequency theory, as with the alternating lifts, should you target the same major muscle via different lifts, at best, you would be still only be targeting that muscle group, every other day or every third day counting weekends, this is again acceptable frequency, via hst standards.  

    Anyone else get what Im saying?  Its kinda like having your cake and eating it too.   [​IMG]
     
  5. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Now if instead of alternating exercises, you think in terms of overlapping two routines, by staggering the second routine, you will hit every exercise twice in a seven day period.</div>

    You've lost me! How do you intend to overlap two routines? Sounds interesting. [​IMG]
     
  6. need2eat

    need2eat New Member

    By alternating exercises via A/B workouts   [​IMG]

    I just recommended everyone look at it that way, instead of confining it to a specific seven day period.

    Its like this, if you do A then within seven days, you will hit A twice and B once.  Big debate as to why you shouldnt do a split.  In reality, if you start from B, within seven days you will have hit B twice and A once, same difference, now if you look at the big picture, your exercising three times a week with HST recommended frequency.

    Another example.  If two day a week workouts are acceptable, according to the research, then consider this.

    If you do a basic routine over a 30 day period, twice a week, you will do 9 total exercises.

    If you do an A/B split, you will do A seven times and B six times, not really the dramatic difference you would expect.  Considering most alternating exercises, still target the same major muscles, in most cases your gonna hit that muscle 13 times, arguably overkill but still, HST acceptable.  The frequency keeps you busy, the alternating keeps you motivated, the multiple exercises increase overall potential.

    Im done.   [​IMG]   Not much left of the dead horse.
     
  7. Let me throw this in the mix: Why not do A Monday, B Tuesday, rest Wednesday, A Thursday, B Friday, Rest Saturday, A Sunday, B Monday, etc...

    You would be lifting two days in a row, but not the same exercise any two consecutive days. You would be getting 5 full body workouts per week.
     
  8. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Not much left of the dead horse.</div>

    Not to worry there, dude. [​IMG]

    After all what you explained is exactly what I do, I just thought that maybe you had a slightly different way of getting there, we're still talking in the same language! [​IMG]

    I guess I just did not bother to do the math for the wider picture, but I see your point.

    I only alternate what I see fit like Deads/Squats, Bench/Dips, and some others, the rest I keep rather constant.

    By the way I got my dip stand [​IMG] I am one happy dude! [​IMG]

    Only today I tried to do both dips and bench, lets just say I lost strength in my second set of benches, should've known it was gonna happen. [​IMG]
     
  9. need2eat

    need2eat New Member

    etothepii

    Well, according to HST, you only need to target a specific muscle two to three times in a seven day period.  Im thinking in terms of alternating two similar compounds per muscle group.  If you were to alternate two completely different exercies, which targeted totally different muscle groups, then I think your method would work.  



    Fausto

    My current cycle, an A/B, is patterned after what you've been telling everyone.   [​IMG]   Its similar to what I was doing, so no big change, enough to make it interesting though.   Yeah, we had the same idea, just talking different languages.  I would like a dip machine, which one did you get?
     
  10. <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">etothepii

    Well, according to HST, you only need to target a specific muscle two to three times in a seven day period. Im thinking in terms of alternating two similar compounds per muscle group.</div>

    I read that as a minimum. I've seen in a few places that a full body workout every 36 hours is the &quot;best&quot; for frequency.
     
  11. terp

    terp New Member

    not only do I appreciate the replies, I feel somewhat relieved this post has sparked some decent discussion.  makes me feel like it wasn't a stupid question after all!

    so should a cycle w/ 2 sets of alternating exercises still last 8 weeks, or be stretched to 16? [​IMG]
     
  12. need2eat

    need2eat New Member

    <div>
    (etothepii @ Jan. 08 2007,11:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">etothepii

    Well, according to HST, you only need to target a specific muscle two to three times in a seven day period.  Im thinking in terms of alternating two similar compounds per muscle group.</div>

    I read that as a minimum. I've seen in a few places that a full body workout every 36 hours is the &quot;best&quot; for frequency.


    Terp

    Well, if you choose to do negatives during the last two week mesocycle, you do negatives. If you choose to continue the 5's, instead of doing negatives, you continue until good form is compromised, I reckon its your call as to how many exercises should max out before you repeat the cycle. [​IMG]</div>
    Well, here is the quote from the study.

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It also appears that since gains in hypertrophy show little difference between 2 or 3 days per week it is safe to assume that 2X week would be just as efficient as 3X per week for most trainees.</div>

    It says, there is no difference in hypertrophy if you exercise two or three days, implying more workouts, wouldn't net any better gains.


    Your right, its suggested that from a frequency standpoint, exercising every second day or three times a week is ok. Its acceptable because it won't negatively affect the training, not necassarily optomize it. Your right though.
     
  13. need2eat

    need2eat New Member

    <div>
    (etothepii @ Jan. 08 2007,11:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">etothepii

    Well, according to HST, you only need to target a specific muscle two to three times in a seven day period.  Im thinking in terms of alternating two similar compounds per muscle group.</div>

    I read that as a minimum. I've seen in a few places that a full body workout every 36 hours is the &quot;best&quot; for frequency.</div>
    Well, here is the quote from the study.

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It also appears that since gains in hypertrophy show little difference between 2 or 3 days per week it is safe to assume that 2X week would be just as efficient as 3X per week for most trainees.</div>

    It says, there is no difference in hypertrophy if you exercise two or three days, implying more workouts, wouldn't net any better gains.


    Your right, its suggested that from a frequency standpoint, exercising every second day or three times a week is ok. Its acceptable because it won't negatively affect the training, not necassarily optomize it. Your right though.




    Terp

    Well, if you choose to do negatives during the last two week mesocycle, you do negatives. If you choose to continue the 5's, instead of doing negatives, you continue until good form is compromised, I reckon its your call as to how many exercises should max out before you repeat the cycle. [​IMG]
     
  14. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Need to eat

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I would like a dip machine, which one did you get? </div>

    Man...this thing I have was rigged by a friend who is a fitter &amp; turner by trade, he used old piping from the ceiling fire sprinklers, 2 pieces about 50 cm or so each, these fit oto somewhat smaller pipes which are welded at an angle onto two machined metal rings that fit into a rod, which makes it slide pretty smoothly.

    That way it slides up onto the wall neatly when I am done, hope my explanation makes some sense, the ends that I use to dip on end in a 32 inch distance from each other starting at a much smaller distance. [​IMG]

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">makes me feel like it wasn't a stupid question after all!</div>

    I have seen lots of stupid interjections but not a lot of stupid questions, most of them are rather appropriate, some just show lack of HST understanding due tolack of reading! [​IMG]
     
  15. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Why not do a cycle where you alternate and then a cycle where you keep the exercises the same and see what works best for you? I have done both and like both but find alternating keeps my enthusiasm higher during 5s, which in turn helps me keep the 5s going for a bit longer. I got good results doing things both ways.

    Maybe it's a case of a change being as good as a rest?
     
  16. need2eat

    need2eat New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Why not do a cycle where you alternate and then a cycle where you keep the exercises the same and see what works best for you? I have done both and like both but find alternating keeps my enthusiasm higher during 5s, which in turn helps me keep the 5s going for a bit longer. I got good results doing things both ways.</div>


    You saw the thread where I mentioned changing routines per cycle, right.   [​IMG]


    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Maybe it's a case of a change being as good as a rest?</div>


    I think your on to something.
     
  17. bgates1654

    bgates1654 New Member

    I had a small question about alternating. I am not sure if it was brought up before. I do 1/2/3 sets and thought maybe instead of alternating the exercises completely one could do 1 set of each in the 10s and alternate 2:1 and 1:2 in the 5s. Do you guys think that would not be enough stimulation in a single bout or something?
     
  18. need2eat

    need2eat New Member

    I dunno.

    What you could do is the 1/2/3 sets, then after the last mesocycle, drop sets accordingly as they become difficult to complete, until your doing one set, then when good form is compromised on X amount of exercises, start the complete cycle over.

    Im just not sure alternating sets like that would do anything.  Im guessing though.
     
  19. lcars

    lcars New Member

    my 2 cents,years ago i was under the impression that swapping exercises constantly would shock the body into growth,now im a little older and wiser i believe this not to the case and infact prefer the basics of training than trying to contort my body into alsorts of positions just to hit a muscle differently.

    i believe that constantly getting stronger at an exercise until progress levels off or a platue is reached is the way to go,once you level off thats the time to switch exercises,and then get stronger at the new exercise. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  20. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Just an observation. I did hack squats yesterday, visiting the gym, and failed miserably to get my expected 5 reps in at slightly higher than the last visit. (315) Meanwhile, my lever machine squats are pretty high at 450...but don't seem to lend any strength to the hacks, in which I've not been training. The movement is nearly identical, but different enough to create a mountain of difficulty switching to the other.

    Had I been training all along with both, my hacks would be higher, and I suppose the squats would be lower.
    Had I been training hacks instead of squats, they would be higher than the squats.

    I do not know what this means in regards to this thread nor have an opinion. Yet.
     

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