Why even use Whey?

[imported_dkm1987]

I originally posted in another thread about Protein Pulse Feeding an article by Bryan in Think Muscle.

This naturally spiked my curiousity so I began digging a little deeper.

So upon further digging I found out more. Not so much about the pulse feeding, although I am citing from that study, but also about protein ingestion as a whole.

Influence of the protein digestion rate on protein turnover in young and elderly subjects.

Dangin M, Boirie Y, Guillet C, Beaufrere B.

Quote[/b] ]Indeed, in young men, using a non-steady-state approach and intrinsically labeled milk protein fractions [whey protein (WP) and casein (CAS)] we showed that a slow digested dietary protein (CAS) induced a greater protein gain than a fast one (WP). The mechanisms of this gain also differed according to the protein rate of digestion. WP stimulated amino acid oxidation and protein synthesis without modifying proteolysis, whereas CAS increased amino acid oxidation and protein synthesis to a lesser extent and strongly inhibited proteolysis.

The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention.

Dangin M, Boirie Y, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Fauquant J, Callier P, Ballevre O, Beaufrere B.

Quote[/b] ]The fast meals induced a strong, rapid, and transient increase of aminoacidemia, leucine flux, and oxidation. After slow meals, these parameters increased moderately but durably. Postprandial leucine balance over 7 h was higher after the slow than after the fast meals

Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion.

Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrere B.

Quote[/b] ]Postprandial protein synthesis was stimulated by 68% with the WP meal and to a lesser extent (+31%) with the CAS meal. Postprandial whole body leucine oxidation over 7 h was lower with CAS (272 +/- 91 micromol.kg-1) than with WP (373 +/- 56 micromol.kg-1). Leucine intake was identical in both meals (380 micromol.kg-1). Therefore, net leucine balance over the 7 h after the meal was more positive with CAS than with WP (P < 0.05, WP vs. CAS). In conclusion, the speed of protein digestion and amino acid absorption from the gut has a major effect on whole body protein anabolism after one single meal. By analogy with carbohydrate metabolism, slow and fast proteins modulate the postprandial metabolic response, a concept to be applied to wasting situations.

Type and timing of protein feeding to optimize anabolism

Mosoni L, Mirand PP.

Quote[/b] ]PURPOSE OF REVIEW: The delivery rate of amino acids to an organism significantly affects protein anabolism. The rate can be controlled by the type and the timing of feeding. Our aim was to bring new insights to the way they may act. RECENT FINDINGS: During young and adult ages, when food supply is liberal, subjects can adapt to various modes of protein feeding. However, during food restriction, protein anabolism is favored when the delivery of amino acids is evenly distributed over the day, either with frequent meals, or through the use of slowly absorbed proteins like casein. In contrast, during aging, quickly absorbed protein sources become more efficient. During recovery after exercise, the timing of protein feeding after the end of exercise may or may not influence its anabolic effect, depending on the subject's age and the type of exercise. SUMMARY: The synchronization of variations in anabolic capability with amino acid supply partly explains the effects of the type and timing of protein feeding. This effect is modulated by the amount of amino acids required to increase whole-body proteins and by the signaling properties of some amino acids to stimulate protein synthesis. Indeed, the anabolic effect of amino acids is determined by their interaction with other anabolic factors (other nutrients or physiological factors, whose efficiency is mainly related to their effect on protein degradation). It is clear that benefits can be obtained from adapted protein feeding patterns.
Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

Amount and fate of egg protein escaping assimilation in the small intestine of humans.

Evenepoel P, Claus D, Geypens B, Hiele M, Geboes K, Rutgeerts P, Ghoos Y.

Quote[/b] ]Ten healthy volunteers were studied once after ingestion of a cooked test meal, consisting of 25 g of (13)C-, (15)N-, and (2)H-labeled egg protein, and once after ingestion of the same but raw meal.Amounts of 5.73% and 35.10% (P < 0.005) of cooked and raw test meal, respectively, escaped digestion and absorption in the small intestine. A significantly higher percentage of the malabsorbed raw egg protein was recovered in urine as fermentation metabolites. These results 1) confirm that substantial amounts of even easily digestible proteins may escape assimilation in healthy volunteers and 2) further support the hypothesis that the metabolic fate of protein in the colon is affected by the amount of protein made available.

From the way I see it Leucine, nitrogen balance and inhibited proteolysis is favorable with the prolonged effect of cassein, unless you are old.

Ok, with all that posted, here is my question.

Is it better to use cassein throughout the day and forget about whey as a pre workout?

And please state why with study references if you have them. Not from the FAQ since I have read all of those a multitude of times.

 

[MrNasty]

I would just enjoy a nice protion of all types of protiens (i.e. whey, casien, and egg protiens). I dont see how it would hurt.

 

[BoSox]

it wouldnt "hurt" but if you're dealing with maximizing efficiency (which HST tries to do), dkm might be on to something.

 

[imported_ejones]

i doubt you'll see a noticeable difference using whatever protein you want as long as it's of good quality and not some pea protein or some ####. the total amount of quality protein taken in during the day will be the determining factor and whether its whey or casein or a combination won't matter.

 

[xahrx]

Quote[/b] (ejones @ Aug. 06 2004,11:23)]i doubt you'll see a noticeable difference using whatever protein you want as long as it's of good quality and not some pea protein or some ####. the total amount of quality protein taken in during the day will be the determining factor and whether its whey or casein or a combination won't matter.

I thought Bryan has said repeatedly that as the quantity goes up, the need for quality goes down with regard to protein. Doesn't it make sense to sacrifice quality for quantity? Megadosing seems to be a common practice in our world. We compensate for okay bioavailability of creatine by supplementing in relatively large amounts, for example. Why not the same approach for protein?

 

[Manic]

DKM, why don't you pm Bryan, lylemcd, or Aaron?

I think Bryan is well aware of the differences between whey and casein... Hence : priver/Driver

Have you read the justification for the Primer and Driver formulation? (HSN products)

Maybe the answer to your questions lies somewhere there

- Fruhbeck G. Protein metabolism. Slow and fast dietary proteins. Nature. 1998 Feb 26;391(6670):843, 845.

- Biolo G, Tipton KD, Klein S, Wolfe RR. An abundant supply of amino acids enhances the metabolic effect of exercise on muscle protein. Am J Physiol. 1997 Jul;273(1 Pt 1):E122-9.

or there :

Protein, Part 1 - Definitions and Technical Background

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Again Manic, if you don't have the specific answer you sure know where it is, man you are invaluable as a walking talking librarian to me.

In Lyle's "Think Muscle"Article you point to he State

Quote[/b] ]Fast vs. slow dietary proteins: the next big thing or much ado about nothing?

A recent paper (6) has kicked off an entirely new category/fad of protein nutrition and marketing, that of fast versus slow dietary proteins. This idea is conceptually similar to the glycemic index (GI) concept which is applied to carbohydrates, and represents the speed at which they digest and affect blood glucose and insulin levels.

In this study, healthy subjects with a normal protein intake (16% of total calories) were fasted for 10 hours and then given either 30 grams of whey protein or 30 grams of casein (milk) protein. The primary finding of the study was that whey protein caused blood leucine levels (which are used as a marker of a variety of metabolic processes in the body) to increase rapidly, hitting a peak in 1 hour. However leucine levels decreased equally rapidly returning to normal by 4 hours. In contrast, casein caused a much slower rise in blood leucine levels, reaching a lower peak around 1 hour, but maintained that level for almost 7 hours (see figure 1).



Additionally, the researchers found that whey protein stimulated protein synthesis (which refers to the building of larger proteins from individual AAs) with no effect on protein breakdown (which refers to the breakdown of larger proteins to individual AAs), while the casein inhibited protein breakdown without affecting protein synthesis. Another observation was that whey protein increased leucine oxidation (burning) slightly more than the casein (31% vs. 24%), probably due to the faster rate of entry. Finally, leucine balance (determined as the amount ingested versus the amount stored) was higher for casein than whey. These observations lend themselves to multiple interpretations.

On the one hand, the effects on protein synthesis and breakdown are interesting and it appears that whey is an 'anabolic' protein while casein is 'anti-catabolic' protein, at least over a span of 7 hours. However, body leucine stores are also important for a variety of reasons (discussed in part 2 of this article) and it could be argued that casein is superior in that it led to net leucine retention by the body. I'm sure that how the study is interpreted will depend on whether the person who is interpreting it wants to sell whey, casein or a blend of the two.

This one study has already generated an article in the prestigious journal Nature (7) as well as in several bodybuilding magazines, with authors suggesting that whey and casein can be used to elicit differential physiological effects and spur growth. Protein supplements containing mixes of the so-called fast and slow proteins have also appeared on the market, with the idea being that one can get increased protein synthesis AND decreased protein breakdown, as well as keeping blood AA levels more stable.

To say that too much has been read into this single study would be putting it mildly. There are a number of issues which have been completely ignored by those reporting on this article which are discussed here. The first and perhaps most important point is that the subjects were fasted for 10 hours prior to being given the protein supplements. Protein synthesis and breakdown rates are very different after a 10 hour fast compared to the rates in the middle of the day after food has been eaten. After an overnight fast, muscle protein synthesis rates may be 50% lower than after food has been consumed (8). This means that any effects from a protein meal would be expected to be much higher first thing in the morning, versus a similar comparison done at a different time of the day.

Additionally, it is well known that the mixing of nutrients (i.e. carbohydrates and protein or carbohydrates, protein and fat) changes the absorption rate of nutrients into the bloodstream (1). Similarly, the presence of undigested food from a previous meal also affects digestion rate. All this study tells us is what will happen when whey or casein is taken by itself, after a 10 hour fast, on an empty stomach. To draw meaningful conclusions from this study to what might happen with the consumption of whey or casein with dietary fat (i.e. flax oil in the blender drink) or carbohydrates, or to other times of the day is impossible.

A final unanswered question is where the protein synthesized during the whey trial was stored (7). That is, the methodology of the study only told the researchers that protein was being synthesized and stored, not where it was going. This is, in fact, a major problem with most human protein research: it is generally difficult to know where stored protein is going unless a biopsy is taken. Since the goal of bodybuilders is to influence muscle protein synthesis, and not just increase whole body protein synthesis, it is important to know where the ingested protein is going. This topic will be discussed in greater detail in part 2 of this series.

Sufficed to say that it is just as reasonable to assume that it was being stored as liver protein as it is to assume it was being stored as muscle protein. Of course, saying that whey will increase liver protein synthesis won't sell a lot of supplements. In part 2 of this series, the issues of protein synthesis and storage after a meal will be addressed in more detail, to help answer this question.

As a final comment, most serious bodybuilders eat a protein containing meal every 2-3 hours as it is. Since blood leucine didn't drop until the 4 hour mark in the whey trial, is it going to make a huge difference whether a bodybuilder consumes whey or milk protein if they are eating every 3 hours? And if casein keeps blood leucine levels up for 7 hours, and whole proteins take even longer to fully digest, is it truly necessary to ingest protein every 3 hours during the day?

Some have suggested consuming a mix of whey and casein right before bedtime to get a sustained release of AA's into the bloodstream and there may be some validity to this. Of course, any whole protein, combined with some carbs, fat and fiber would accomplish just as much.

A final question that this study raises has to do with the post-workout protein feeding. Consider that even the whey protein took 1 hour to raise blood leucine levels to it's peak. If the idea is to provide AAs to a recovering muscle immediately after training, it might make more sense to consume protein an hour or two before the workout, so that AAs are hitting the bloodstream as the workout is ending.

Which leads me to believe as along as bloodstream AA's are high then it doesn't really matter is it is whey or casein, which corresponds with the reference's I cited. Further in the Article he mentions the Amino's that are in each type, Egg, Whey, Milk, Meat and Soy,

excellent info, but what I notice here is that Whey and Milk Protein isn't that much different, so if I choose Milk Proteins (casein) over Whey, I would say that timeing is more critical that choice. As long as the AA level is high in the bloodstream at the time I am finishing my workout it shouldn't make a difference.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

BTW, Manic, two of the studies I referenced where ones that Bryan refernced in his HSN Product formulation, so yes I have read it.

 

[Aaron_F]

Whey has its own uses

(and if you take small doses of whey frequently over time, it works the same as casein, but cheaper )

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ Aug. 06 2004,6:52)]Whey has its own uses
(and if you take small doses of whey frequently over time, it works the same as casein, but cheaper )

Aaron, I beg to differ on both points, what uses does it have other than delivery of AA, and since the AA profile of Whey vs. Casein is amost Identical I personally see no difference other than delivery time and if timed correctly casein has several more advantages, such as better Leucine profile, prolonged delivery, and nitrogen balance.

Second, I can make my own protein drink from Dried Skim milk, Flax Oil, Cocoa Powder and Maltodextrin for a whole lot cheaper, which BTW I have been doing. I mean as much as more than half the price per serving, with a better(more balanced) macronutrient profile.

 

[Cliner9er]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Aug. 07 2004,9:32)]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ Aug. 06 2004,6:52)]Whey has its own uses
(and if you take small doses of whey frequently over time, it works the same as casein, but cheaper )

Aaron, I beg to differ on both points, what uses does it have other than delivery of AA, and since the AA profile of Whey vs. Casein is amost Identical I personally see no difference other than delivery time and if timed correctly casein has several more advantages, such as better Leucine profile, prolonged delivery, and nitrogen balance.
Second, I can make my own protein drink from Dried Skim milk, Flax Oil, Cocoa Powder and Maltodextrin for a whole lot cheaper, which BTW I have been doing. I mean as much as more than half the price per serving, with a better(more balanced) macronutrient profile.

You are answering your own question dkm. Whey and Casien have almost identical AA profiles only differences are the digestion rates. Also note that this is all a moot with the addition of other foods and/or frequent feeding on the tune of a meal every 3ish hours. Casien will also be better geared for a hypocaloric diet.

You protein shake strategy is somewhat flawed as well. Flax oil will "sit"in the gut without utilization in this form unless you have a previous meal digesting before the protein shake.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Cliner9er @ Aug. 09 2004,11:03)]You protein shake strategy is somewhat flawed as well. Flax oil will "sit"in the gut without utilization in this form unless you have a previous meal digesting before the protein shake.

Why is that?

 

[Aaron_F]

Whey pulse fed and casein in one lump ends up with same lucine balance...
which is ultimately a moot point anyway
in terms of flax oil
what happens to a fat in liquid?

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ Aug. 09 2004,5:53)]what happens to a fat in liquid?

Ok, but I don't see the point, if your stomach contents are digested, what is the difference, eventually it is digested and broken down right?

 

[OneMoreRep]

dkm1987,

experiment

 

[Aaron_F]

Its an added fat, not integral to the food. it enters the system as a fat alone, where as within food its a part of it, which needs to be broken out of that.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ Aug. 10 2004,2:53)]Its an added fat, not integral to the food. it enters the system as a fat alone, where as within food its a part of it, which needs to be broken out of that.

So the difference here being what, when ingesting EFA's it is a good practice to eat them right after a meal or after/with Carbs to stop the oxidation of the EFA so it can enter the fat cell. Is that not true? So when adding them to a meal, even a protein meal, would the liver not preferentially oxidize the protein and allow the EFA's to pass into the fat cells?

 

[Cliner9er]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Aug. 09 2004,12:40)]

3-->

Quote[/b] (Cliner9er @ Aug. 09 2004,11

3)]You protein shake strategy is somewhat flawed as well. Flax oil will "sit"in the gut without utilization in this form unless you have a previous meal digesting before the protein shake.

Why is that?

Dig Dis Sci. 1982 Aug;27(8):705-11.

Gastric emptying and intragastric distribution of lipids in man. A new
scintigraphic method of study.

Jian R, Vigneron N, Najean Y, Bernier JJ.

We measured gastric emptying of fat and water from a solid-liquid meal in
healthy volunteers using a tubeless scintigraphic method. Selenium-75 glycerol
triether, incorporated in butter, was the lipid-phase marker, and
technetium-99m, ingested with 250 ml water, the non-lipid phase marker. In seven
of these subjects we also measured the gastric emptying of solids and liquids
with technetium-99m bound to cooked egg whites as the solid-phase marker and
indium-111 ingested with 250 ml water as the marker of the solid and aqueous
phases. Emptying and intragastric repartition of each marker were measured by
detection of radioactivity changes over the abdominal area using a gamma-camera.
The stability and the specificity of the labeling was checked for each marker.
Mean gastric emptying rate (expressed as percentage ingested marker emptied per
hr) of lipids (17.4 +/- 2.4) was much lower than that of the rest of the meal
(34.2 +/- 1.8) and slightly, but significantly, lower than that of solids (22.8
+/- 1.8). An intragastric layering of fat above nonlipids was observed only
after the first postprandial hour and remained moderate. Thus, lipids are
emptied more slowly than any other component of an ordinary meal, and this is
not due only to layering of fat above water.

PMID: 7094791 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



2: Gastroenterology. 1981 May;80(5 pt 1):922-7.

Gastric emptying of lipids after ingestion of a solid-liquid meal in humans.

Cortot A, Phillips SF, Malagelada JR.

We measured gastric emptying of fat and water from a mixed meal in 6 healthy
volunteers using a technique of duodenal perfusion that included phase-specific,
nonabsorbable markers. Pairs of water-soluble markers (polyethylene glycol 4000
and phenolsulfonphthalein) and (equivalent) lipid-soluble ([14C]sucrose
octaoleate and [3H]glycerol triether) markers were used. For each pair, one
marker was used to label the corresponding component of the meal (water of fat),
and the other was perfused into the duodenum as a recovery marker. The perfusion
method was validated by comparing the amount of marker emptied, as estimated by
marker dilution, with the amount obtained by complete aspiration of intestinal
contents proximal to an occlusive balloon. Throughout the postprandial period,
ratios of lipid marker to total fatty acids in the stomach remained constant,
indicating a stable relationship of meal marker to total lipids. Water always
emptied faster than did lipids, substantial amounts of which were still in the
stomach after 6 h. There was close agreement between recovery of fat proximal to
the balloon and calculations of lipid emptying from duodenal perfusion,
supporting the validity of the marker dilution technique for the gastric
emptying of lipids. This study demonstrates that when ingested as part of an
ordinary mixed meal, water and fat have different patterns of emptying, water
leaving the stomach first.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Cliner9er @ Aug. 10 2004,12:57)]

Ok, so fat is last to leave, which again, isn't that what we want so that the oxidation of fats is minimized?

I know this thread has taken a turn from the original, but I am trying to fiqure out what is most effective for the $.

Whey being initially cheaper, actually isn't when you break it down to $ per gram of protein, having to ingest it more frequently raises the cost to two to three fold of a casien based shake. Which if I where to eliminate the flax oil (still not sure why) even excarberates the difference.

Like I said I make my own which has 25 Grams of Protein at a cost of 2.3 cents per gram, most Whey based comes out to 6 cents per gram when equivilized. Adding in the effect of time and Amino Delivery, if using whey one would have to ingest another three times the amount raising the cost difference even higher. Now I don't mind spending my money if there are advantages but if not why spend it?

Obviously nuff said, I'll let it rest.

 

[Aaron_F]

Lets say

with casein you can take 1 serving of 30g and still have some aminos showing up after 8hours

with whey to get the same effect, you would have to take the same total quantity (30g) over the 8hr period Say 6g every so often (im too lazy to figure it out)

you dont have to take a full 30g every time. all you are ultimately doing is slowing the absorbtion via a different mechanism (slower intake) compared to casein (clot formation)

Same result, different method