Volume vs. Frequency

M

MoDog

New Member
Hey folks,
it came to my mind that splitting up a volume of lets say 20 reps in 2 or 3 units might be reasonable in terms of fatigue management, when it comes to the heavy stuff (beyond RM5 maybe earlier).
So instead of doing three workouts per week with a total volume of 60 reps/week for each exercise (for example), one could do six workouts and 10 reps per exercise, while keeping the weekly volume the same. The advantages would be shorter workout times and a higher frequency, thus a more significant summation effect.
Whatcha thinkin bout this?
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Mo

Its logical...if you increase frequency, drop the volume, so as to spread out things.

Sounds like a plan!
 
The only argument to this is the right now effect we have been discussing for months now.

I tend you think you have to do a minimum amount in a training session to elicit growth IMO.
 
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(Joe.Muscle @ Oct. 04 2007,12:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The only argument to this is the right now effect we have been discussing for months now.

I tend you think you have to do a minimum amount in a training session to elicit growth IMO.</div>
What would you define as minimum amount? And how important is the right now effect? Do you really know? Sry if x questions which have already been discussed here but I'm genuinely interested in this.
 
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(MoDog @ Oct. 04 2007,17:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Oct. 04 2007,12:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The only argument to this is the right now effect we have been discussing for months now.

I tend you think you have to do a minimum amount in a training session to elicit growth IMO.</div>
What would you define as minimum amount? And how important is the right now effect? Do you really know? Sry if x questions which have already been discussed here but I'm genuinely interested in this.</div>
It would seem that the 'right now' effect is pretty important. I found that it was for me this last cycle - upping the volume each session definitely upped my progress more than expected.

The minimum volume required to elicit a response will very much depend on your training history, your level of conditioning at the time and the loads you are using. So when you are new to training, even quite low volume will work well. As your training progresses the 'right now' volume required to trigger a response will inevitably increase. My best suggestion is to start out with around 15 reps per exercise and see how you get on.

Once you are using loads around your 5RMs, doing too much volume will result in a greater fatigue accumulation even if you use fatigue management techniques like Max Stim.

So, you have to use some experience and some experimentation. And, once you have been training a while, it may well be that in order to get enough 'right now' volume each session you have to reduce training frequency. The total weekly volume might not be much different for each bodypart but the amount done each session will be higher.

As Joe pointed out, there have been quite a few threads discussing this recently so do a search and something helpful should come up.
 
As others have said, you must listen to your own body. Look at past results, and don't be afraid to try something new. I like the higher frequency, lower volume per/WO method because of the short WO's fit into my daily schedule. I tend to skip a longer WO if I don't have the time.
 
Mo,

I don't care how new to weight lifting you are...10 reps per exercise is unlikely to give you much (if any) growth unless you are doing 2-3 exercises per muscle group. You would have to go as heavy as possible (for you) and nearly reaching failure in the last rep for it to have a chance as well IMO. If you ARE going to to 10 reps, I would suggest 5x2 at your 3RM.
 
Lol, im doing the routine you recommended me to do on another thread. you wrote me to do on 5's 3-2 sets (2 sets when i get to my max weights on 5's), is 2 sets of 5's is enough for the right now affect?
 
Avi,

I'm pretty sure that 2 sets of 5 with your 5RM should be enough but it may not be. I can't remember your lifting history or whether this is your first HST cycle?

If you find that you are able to cope well keeping to three sets (or 15 reps) at the end of the 5s then that's great. If you feel like you are getting burnt out then drop down to 2 sets (10 total reps). However, once you are at your 5RM it may well not be possible for you to complete even two sets. That's where clustering can be really helpful as it allows you to complete more reps with your heaviest loads while reducing fatigue build-up as you can stay further away from failure. If you haven't tried clustering before why not give it a try?

eg. When I squatted the other day, I managed 5 clustered reps with my 5RM plus I did another 15 reps at a slightly lighter load. My legs got pretty sore for a few days afterwards which is quite a good indication that I did enough to trigger a response (especially at this point in my cycle). I've been squatting pretty consistently for two years now and 20 total reps with those loads seemed to be plenty for me. It might be that even just 10 reps with my 5RM would have been enough but I'd rather do a bit more to be sure. That's where personal experience comes in.
 
If you are new to the lifting game just stick to compound and no direct iso work and you can get more volume out of your lifts that way withou overdoing it IMO.
 
Thnx for the answear.
Im not new. So on 5's  and 3's ill do 4-3 sets. (just to make sure i get enough work for the right now affect).
By the way, im on 15's now and already cluster ( first set 15 reps, and after that start to cluster).
 
Avi,

If you are not new for lifting...just shoot for around 30 to 36 reps when you can.

I always like the 100 reps a week idea per bodypart.

So you can adjust volume according wether or not you workout 2 or 3 times a week.

Of course during the 5's 100 reps a week is out of the question but around 70 reps would be doable.
 
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(Lol @ Oct. 04 2007,21:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">eg. When I squatted the other day, I managed 5 clustered reps with my 5RM plus I did another 15 reps at a slightly lighter load. My legs got pretty sore for a few days afterwards which is quite a good indication that I did enough to trigger a response (especially at this point in my cycle).</div>
Lol, why do you say this? I'm pretty sure DOMS isn't an indicator of an effective load for hypertrophy, as there are many reasons why DOMS happens, anyways

and yes, this right now effect still has ME bamboozled haha, ok, let's SAY that we are eating PLENTY enough, is it right to say that if only fat is gained, that we aren't doing enough Now volume?

we only have to do enough to stimulate protein synthesis and keep it up consistently preferably, but that's the thing, is there a CERTAIN POINT eg a CERTAIN amount of reps/sets needed to start the growth process with a given load? and i'm not talking about generally, because i know that we have different conditioning and so forth, but what i mean is for our OWN bodies, is it a matter of doing a certain amount of our Now conditioned reps which then pushes the red button that starts protein synth?
(like some funky board game where u need the boot to kick the bucket which makes the bucket drop a ball down a slide which knocks a stick which rests against a platform with a ball on it which then falls onto a diving board WHICH eventually pushes the MAIN BIG button of PS???)

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i just haven't read about the PS process enough ay
 
&quot;Right now effect,&quot; eh? Here's the question:

Is the &quot;right now effect&quot; total body workload specific or bodypart specific?

If total body specific, then you have to keep the number of weekly workouts down.

But if it's bodypart specific, then we have an easy solution. Instead of changing a 3-day full body routine to a 6-day full body routine (thus cutting per-bodypart workload in half), you can do a 6-day split routine (U/L or Push/Pull) so the individual bodypart workload remains at 3 workouts per week.
 
I thought someone might ask that, which is why I said &quot;quite a good indication.&quot;
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Well, you are right, I can't be sure, but here's why I said it: It's fairly easy for me to get DOMS if I change something in my program. However, if I keep to the same exercises and just increment loads, I don't get much in the way of DOMs once past the first week of the cycle; there's usually a bit but not much. This is particularly true for my legs. So the increased DOMS from my last heavy leg workout was definitely a sign that the loading and TUT had not gone unnoticed at a cellular level! I think in that way, DOMS is quite a useful indicator.

Again, I can't know if I did enough to trigger a response; I do know that if I did any more I would have been hobbling around like more of a geriatric than I am already and I would have been unable to train again soon enough so my frequency would have suffered (as it turned out I had to take some time off anyway and so I know my next bout of squats will leave me pretty sore again).

It is very frustrating that we can't know when we've done enough but that also makes it part of the fun and it's also where experience and experimentation come into play.
 
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(Joe.Muscle @ Oct. 05 2007,21:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Avi,

If you are not new for lifting...just shoot for around 30 to 36 reps when you can.</div>
And if im not new???
 
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(Avi1985 @ Oct. 06 2007,23:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Oct. 05 2007,21:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Avi,

If you are not new for lifting...just shoot for around 30 to 36 reps when you can.</div>
And if im not new???</div>
He starts the sentence with 'if you are not new'...
 
If you are not new you still have many options.

You could keep volume constant at say 20 reps.

Or you could not keep volume constant and do more reps with the lighter weight until you get heavy.

That may look like 2 sets of 15s, 3 sets of 10...then 2 sets of 10 then maybe 3 sets of 5 and then 2 sets of 5 when it gets real heavy.

The basis for all of this is you should always do as much volume as possible without it hindering your next workout and your ability to increase the weight each workout!

I hope this helps!
 
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