Vitamin 'T'

S

scientific muscle

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Any forum members with any experience with a test-only cycle or similar? I am doing some research and considering supplementing HST with some "vitamin T".
Please share your experiences, dosages, length of cycle, side effects, etc.

If you don't know what vitamin T is, then you probably haven't done it.
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I haven't done it yet, but I'll warn you, if you don't already know - the biggest side effect is likely going to be bloat. I've known many a guy who gets a big moon face when they cycle. Blood pressure is another possibility, but I don't think it will be too bad. Just be sure to monitor it. Bloat can be avoided by taking Arimidex or something like that.

Really, it seems it is only the really unlucky guys who have issues with gyno. But... there is a good chance you'll get a bit of acne, and I can pretty much guarantee that it will increase the amount of bodyhair you have, and cause hair to start growing where it didn't use to grow.

If you haven't already thought of this, you may want to go get bloodwork done before hand, see where your lipids, etc are at. Then a few months after your cycle, get it checked again just to be sure everything is still in line.

One last thing to consider is possibly supplementing with HCG during the cycle, it makes recovery easier. It's probably not necessary since you are relatively young still, but it can help.
 
That matches what I know about it. I want to hit it just a bit above normal levels for the anabolic help, but mostly for all the other things it does to a guy without much of it. Keeping the levels low would of course, limit the sides, but also the anabolic effects. Until I pay off an accordion stack of bills and some taxes I'm not even paying attention.

There seems to be a lot of disagreement about starting dosages.
 
Vitamin T ROFLMAO!!

I have done several cycles. Both with and without doing hst. By far my biggest gains have been with hst.

It would be impossible to list all of the cycles.

You can control bloat with an anti-estrogen like arimidex. If the bloat doesn't bother you I wouldn't worry about it.

500 mg weekly for 10-12 weeks is ideal. two shots a week if you are running test e or c. This will help stabilize blood levels and minimize acne. I get a little at the beginning of a cycle but it goes away quickly. Mostly on my chest so it is no big deal.

Hope you have a girfriend, wife or significant other. Sex drive is crazy during a cycle. Even at my age I can hit it more often than I could at 18. LOL! Drives the wife crazy.
 
200-250 mg. @ twice/weekly inj. for 10 weeks is probably what I would try. Still researching and haven't decided one way or another yet. I have made great gains unassisted this past year, but I feel a need for a boost lately. My training is so dialed in lately I can't help but wonder how gains would be 'on'. Anyone seriously into weight-training has considered the idea, I would like to experience it for myself at least once, maybe not yet though.
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never done any personally but have trained with a few folks who have. most of the info already provivded covers what ive picked up from them, and then some. nothing like personal exper.
two things come to mind from what theve always told me.
1.) you can never do enough research. dont just rely on what a couple guys tell you or what you read over a couple weeks. you need to be your own version of consumer report magzine (as best you can).
2.) its best to think about assistance once you feel youve maxed out your natural gains. this is obviously a personal decision but ive heard it gives you better feel for what potential gains you can expect with AAS while giving you the piece of mind of knowing you did all you could naturally.

not sure if thats of any help. either way good luck in whatever you choose to do.
 
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(bluejacket @ Apr. 04 2007,22:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Its best to think about assistance once you feel you've maxed out your natural gains.</div>
I agree with bluejacket, for moral and ego based reasons.

It really depends if you're lifting to make maximum gains quickly, or for your own personal satisfaction of making those gains the hard way. I personally don't hold it against anyone for using &quot;Vitamin T&quot; (heh), but the general community does, and its technically (and legally) considered &quot;cheating&quot;, not to mention illegal.

Not trying to talk you out of it, just know that once you go down that path, you can never claim to be &quot;completely natural&quot; when some jughead asks you. That's if you care what other people think, which you probably don't. I mean Bryan admits to have used it in the past, and we still have respect for him, because of all that he's achieved (size and science wise)

Its a pity morons and meatheads have ruined responsible use of T for mature lifters (especially older lifters who have low natural T). I would love to have T be as legal and acceptable as creatine.
 
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(Peak_Power @ Apr. 04 2007,23:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I personally don't hold it against anyone for using &quot;Vitamin T&quot; (heh), but the general community does, and its technically (and legally) considered &quot;cheating&quot;, not to mention illegal.</div>
Ohh crap, its illegal and frowned upon by society!!!  Well, forget it then.
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Sorry to be a smartass, but lets keep this thread about people's experiences, NOT their opinions.
 
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(quadancer @ Apr. 04 2007,21:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">That matches what I know about it. I want to hit it just a bit above normal levels for the anabolic help, but mostly for all the other things it does to a guy without much of it. Keeping the levels low would of course, limit the sides, but also the anabolic effects. Until I pay off an accordion stack of bills and some taxes I'm not even paying attention.

There seems to be a lot of disagreement about starting dosages.</div>
From my experience if you're not getting sides you're not getting benefits. If you're going to do it, go for it. Hitting levels just above normal isn't going to do much for you in the short or long term, might as well take one of the nonhormonal test boosting stacks to achieve that.

If you've never done it before and you're not a moose sized person 500mg split into two doses a week will get you going just fine. Something not mentioned so far but which bears repeating even if you've read it before: USE STERILE INJECTION PROTOCOLS. Or go transdermal if you can.

The cool thing is there are effective anti aromatase products on the market which are legal. They will help with the sides. Don't overdose them though, estrogen is to be controlled, not destroyed.
 
good input, thanks xahrx. Is a prescription needed for anti-aromatase? I have heard nolvadex is good stuff, and to have it on hand even if you don't plan on using it.
 
Never used 'em, never will....but....I have done a prohormone cycle. I know they're illegal now, but they still can be had if you have the right connections....and they're a might bit safer than T, also.

I used Mag-10 from Biotest about five years ago, and gained like 20 pounds over the course of eight weeks. Of course, like Vitamin T, after you go off, you lose most of it...but what a ride!
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Many of my friends in college did ragin' roids, and one of them still has gyno to this day, and will require cosmetic surgery to remove the breast tissue. To me, that's the scariest proposition about doing T.

But if you can get your hands on a prohormone, I think you'd find the benefits similar to that of T, and much safer.
 
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(Slapshotz @ Apr. 06 2007,18:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Never used 'em, never will....but....I have done a prohormone cycle.  I know they're illegal now, but they still can be had if you have the right connections....and they're a might bit safer than T, also.

I used Mag-10 from Biotest about five years ago, and gained like 20 pounds over the course of eight weeks.  Of course, like Vitamin T, after you go off, you lose most of it...but what a ride!
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Many of my friends in college did ragin' roids, and one of them still has gyno to this day, and will require cosmetic surgery to remove the breast tissue.   To me, that's the scariest proposition about doing T.

But if you can get your hands on a prohormone, I think you'd find the benefits similar to that of T, and much safer.</div>
Prohormones and steroids are the same thing. All your sex hormones get converted back and forth to different versions with varying degrees of anabolic androgenic effects. The different label if for marketing/legal reasons alone. Steroids are prohormones, prohormones are steroids, and taken in doses that deliver the same effects will deliver the same risk of side effects including gyno. The difference more often than not was the allowed delivery system. The products marketed as prohormones technically were illegal to methylate or make in injectable form. Some companies still made them in those forms regardless.

Scientific, Nolvadex is not an anti aromatase, it is a SERM. It will block the effects of estrogen not block its formation, an anti aromatase stops the formation of estrogen. There are various RX SERMs and AIs, a pretty good list of each can be found at the respective links. The legal AIs are all steroidal in nature I believe, and can be gotten at any supplement store. The RX ones are RX, can be gotten on the black market or for 'research' purposes, meaning not for human consumption. Toremifene is one of the better SERMS out there right now. Take too high a dose and you might spontaneously ejaculate it seems.

Got to get me some of that.

Keep in might that SERMs and AIs are both drugs, same as steroids, and have positive and negative effects of their own. For example I think all AIs, types I and II, will be somewhat hard on the lipids, same as steroids. Whereas SERMs like Nolvadex which is tamoxifen citrate, are synthetic estrogens and might help lipids recover by their action in the body. But you also might start seeing streaks in your vision.

Personally I'd keep AIs for on cycle control of estrogen and use a SERM as the main part of my pct, with a lower dose AI possible and a veritable shitload of cholesterol/liver health/testosterone boosters et al.
 
I think not necessarily. I've done a cycle of 1-test and a couple cycles of Superdrol and I have to say, the sides were unpleasant enough (cramping, mostly) and there is a reason all PH's are measured by comparing to 1-test.  As you said, the downside is losing the gains, which, as I understand, are less (loss) with the real deal. I've heard of 1-test described as being nearly poison, but in truth, I think it's basically a steroid. There are definitely better alternatives for the money.

Inherently, the only advantage to PH's are anabolism. But with test, there are a host of benefits I've read about. The thing that I've not seen a lot of even anecdotal evidence on is retaining gains.
It would be great if you could keep it all, but since that's a fairy tale, I would be inquisitive as to what the best PCT is for that, and how did guys fare who just did a few cycles and quit? Did they 'jack up' and be able to stay there with diet and workouts? Or was there a continuous loss factor?
The point is, most of us who would like to use a little would like to keep our earnings, and not have to continue cycling forever just to keep them.
I, on the other hand, have low hormones and would be tempted to use a smaller dosage when 'off' in order to have a libido and some energy.
 
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(quadancer @ Apr. 06 2007,20:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think not necessarily. I've done a cycle of 1-test and a couple cycles of Superdrol and I have to say, the sides were unpleasant enough (cramping, mostly) and there is a reason all PH's are measured by comparing to 1-test.  As you said, the downside is losing the gains, which, as I understand, are less (loss) with the real deal. I've heard of 1-test described as being nearly poison, but in truth, I think it's basically a steroid. There are definitely better alternatives for the money.

Inherently, the only advantage to PH's are anabolism. But with test, there are a host of benefits I've read about. The thing that I've not seen a lot of even anecdotal evidence on is retaining gains.
It would be great if you could keep it all, but since that's a fairy tale, I would be inquisitive as to what the best PCT is for that, and how did guys fare who just did a few cycles and quit? Did they 'jack up' and be able to stay there with diet and workouts? Or was there a continuous loss factor?
The point is, most of us who would like to use a little would like to keep our earnings, and not have to continue cycling forever just to keep them.
I, on the other hand, have low hormones and would be tempted to use a smaller dosage when 'off' in order to have a libido and some energy.</div>
It's methylated 1 testosterone you are talking about actually. M1T. It was a very harsh steroid for most, but it also gave very impressive gains. It is a steroid. There is no grey area, a steroid is a steroid is a steroid. Unmethylated 1 testosterone, which is what most people are referring to when using the term 1 test, was actually a very mild steroid with good dry gains and a low incidence of side effects at least as reported anecdotally. It was in fact my favorite, I wish I had stocked up on raw powder when it was still available through the stores. I took that stuff and I was shooting bullet holes in the headboard with my girlfriend. Quite amazing.

Keeping gains is a mix of diet, training and PCT. You have to keep eating. You have to eat more in fact to support the new muscle and offset any catabolism during PCT while you're getting your hormone levels back to normal. If you're not going past your genetic limit you can maintain a good amount of your gains if, and I stress if, you do an effective PCT and know how to handle training during that time. You drop volume for one but you have to keep the weight up if you can, and you have to keep your calories UP UP UP UP. Fat is your friend during this time period. You can see the weight slip a little because you're not getting the androgenic effects of the roids anymore, which help strength. But it shouldn't slip too much. Any more than 5-10% I'd back volume off more and keep trying to maintain the weight you're putting up. In the end the muscle you add comes down to the weight on the bar and sucking down calories.

Plus you have to have reasonable expectations of what you can effectively gain in a cycle. Push yourself too hard the roids will help you achieve your goals, but the more reasonable your approach the more likely you will hang on to your gains. If you shoot for putting on 50 lbs while on cycle and doubling your bench you just might do it. Good luck maintaining it though.
 
Now THAT makes sense; and you don't see many guys posting about PCE...post cycle eating! I'll bet that was my mistake both times. I'd gained 9 lbs. in 6 wks. on the methyl 1-test, and lost 6 quickly afterward. Gained about 6 lbs. on the superdrol, and lost about 3 afterward.
Crap, all I had to do was EAT more?
Well, thanx for the advice; someday I'll be using it I hope. Since the ban, no miraculous new developments; just a lot of BS claims and I quit looking. I'll just wait until I can hit the real deal and set up a better PCT.
 
One thing you may want to consider is the legal ramifications. As peak pointed out, they are illegal. I'm not saying not to do it, I'm saying that you should be careful. Can you trust your wife not to tell anyone? If so, then cool, but be sure no one knows about it otherwise. You'd be surprised how easy it is to get into legal trouble.

A buddy of mine made this girl mad somehow, and she happened to be privy to the information that he was on steroids at the time. The cops found a 20 ml vial of test E, 10 ml of Deca, 100 caps of 10 mg Winstrol and Nolvadex. Lucky for him, the officer that he dealt with helped him out a little bit and got his charges dropped from a felony of possession to a simply misdemeanor for 'attempted' possession of an analogue. Sucks for him though, since here in Michigan, any drug charge includes a mandatory six month suspension of your driver's license. And his name was in the paper for the court section, so everyone knows.
Guess he won't be running any more cycles...

So just be careful. Another thing to watch for is disposing of your needles in a safe place. A lot of guys tell me they just use an old protein container and drop them in there after they shoot, but if it were me, I'd make it a bit more conspicuous. You don't want someone reaching in there.

Like xahrx alluded, you will want to read up on injection protocols. I'd recommend trying for the quads. Glutes are hard to reach unless you have your wife do them for you. Quads are easy to reach and supposedly don't hurt at all.

Good luck though. I'll be interested to see how you do, especially with the awesome routine you are planning on.
 
I am just researching, not 100% decided to supplement with vitamin T.
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I have spent heavy hours studying all week and I can tell you I know more than I ever would believe. To be honest this is actually very complicated (and relatively expensive if done correctly) and people need to do alot of research before they even consider the idea.
Sources, dosages, injection protocols, anti-estrogens during or as PCT, etc. etc.

I can see why so many people screw it up, get hurt or get heavy sides, I can also see how many educated guys can supplement properly, combat the sides and do rigorous PCT to keep gains.
It is actually alot like training itself, but more dangerous. Like training, most people starting out have no idea what they are doing, and blindly trusting a friend is just stupid. On the other hand, a trainee armed with science and well-studied in HST can make great gains and keep them.
I am very confident about everything now, wether I supplement or not, I am glad I took the time to research this and I admit it that it opened my eyes to a whole new world!
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I'm really glad for Xharx and Tot's advice. I'm on board with you Sci; don't want to be stupid about things. And stoopid is why they're illegal now.
I'm not finished trying stuff. I'm willing to work my butt off, training hard and smart until I run out of ideas, options, and gains before adding any enhancements, save for legal test. On the other hand, I really hate to spend even MORE money for the legal stuff, that is MUCH less product, but at least I don't have to worry about anyone getting their noses in my business, and I can at least FEEL better, even if it's not an anabolic dosage.
I'm so tired of being tired.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Prohormones and steroids are the same thing.  All your sex hormones get converted back and forth to different versions with varying degrees of anabolic androgenic effects.  The different label if for marketing/legal reasons alone.  Steroids are prohormones, prohormones are steroids, and taken in doses that deliver the same effects will deliver the same risk of side effects including gyno.  The difference more often than not was the allowed delivery system.  The products marketed as prohormones technically were illegal to methylate or make in injectable form.  Some companies still made them in those forms regardless.</div>

Wow....never knew that.  Guess I got really lucky, then, since I had no sides at the time (acne, gyno, etc.).  Long term risks?  $hit, who knows what they might be, and to this day I regret my choice of doing them in the first place, but that's water under the bridge.
 
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