Sticking points - How to beat them?

Discussion in 'Basic Training Principles and Methods' started by Fausto, Aug 3, 2006.

  1. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Guys

    I have been pondering on this and without sidding with any speciality programs,...hmmmm...J-reps comes to mind [​IMG] , how on earthg does one beat these "devils".

    I remember seeing that guy in the vid recently, squatting 295 Kg when he's only 99 himself and "Ass to the Grass", not long after he lifted the second time he takes up teh bar again, with a lot less weight and performs a kinda half assed squat hardly going down but just bending slightly, whatever that is it must work, anybody know what he was doing there?

    Anyway...I find when doing ATG squats...did some just yesterday and bettered my best on ATG poundage, from 80 to 90 Kg, but was getting almost stuck mid way up.

    Now how in the hell does one beat that? Is there a technique either than the "famous J-reps" to get around this?

    Anyone? [​IMG]
     
  2. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Had the same problem with leg curls. The Max-Stim project is working for me; came up ten lbs. in 3 workouts after being stuck at one weight for two whole cycles.
     
  3. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Thanks Quadancer.

    Any other opinions? Aaaron? Others?
     
  4. faz

    faz Active Member

    fausto you can either do negs or partial squats this gets you used to controling more weight..or eat more [​IMG]
     
  5. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Faz

    I already do partial squats (Box squats) and have handled 140 Kg for 4 reps, but when doing 90 Kg ATG there is a sticking point that almost stops me from getting it right, if I do it with 100 Kg I will not be able to get up, you know what I mean?
     
  6. style

    style New Member

    I'm assumming the sticking point is at the bottum, this may be due to a lack of ham/ glute strength?

    SDLD?
     
  7. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Fausto: my take on it is that there almost always has to be a sticking point with every exercise. You will always be looking to improve the weakest link in the chain. And the weakest link in the chain will vary as you take steps to improve a previously weak link.

    This is ultimately what limits our maximum lift in each case. As you know, the load is (at least with free weights) moving in a vertical plane whereas our joints are all rotational. This means that the forces on the muscles are constantly changing throughout the motion. At each stage of the movement some muscles will be working their hardest while others will be having an easier time.

    In the case of compounds like squats, this is quite complicated as so many muscles are involved around the three main joints (points of rotation). It also depends on how you perform the exercise.

    As style says, if you are having difficulty coming out of the hole, or shortly therafter, it would point to you needing some extra hammy and glute strength. I am pretty convinced that doing heavy stiff-legged deads has really helped my squats to come on. I am finding that my sticking point is higher up than it ever used to be. This points to quad strength now being the issue for me.

    At some point I will do a resolving of forces diagram for some of the popular compounds at various points in the movements to show the forces and, if I get my engineering hat, I may be able to work out the max and min positions for each of the main muscle groups. It would be an interesting study. If anyone knows if this has already been done and has a link that would be great (I'm sure it has). No sense in recreating the wheel.
     
  8. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    Fausto the only thing I can add it partial reps like everyone is saying.

    Just find your sticking point and train it.

    For example with bench press...there is normally a sticking point for most people.

    Find out the weak area and do the partial for that area.

    Weak chest= lower half press

    Weak Tricep = upper half of the press.
     
  9. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    But how would you incorporate the partials into your HST?
     
  10. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    Two points regarding sticking points...
    1) Have you tried squatting with your heel elevated on a block or something?  I have really long legs and I lose my balance easily doing deep squats, now I do them with a 1.5" wooden board under my heels as this helps my balance and has been proven in the laboratory to transfer more force to the quadriceps muscles...which are really a weak area for me personally.
    2) In general with sticking points, you have to simply work through it, if you are getting stuck halfway up then you are going to have get stronger in that range of motion...just use really good form and strain your muscles like crazy when you reach the sticking point, eventually your muscles will adapt to the strain and get stronger.  Like many of the other guys said...you have too work with whatever weight you can handle during the weakest range of motion.  I personally can squat about 250 lb.s doing half squats but find it only works my glutes and hamstrings...I have to use the heel elevation and squat really deep to hit my quadriceps properly and then I can only squat about 180 lb.s but that is because my quads are doing most of the work and they are pathetic!!! But if I stick with doing them this way, eventually my quadriceps will grow enough to catch up with my hams and glutes.  If you are concerned about your stronger muscle groups not getting enough exercise while you are bringing up your weaker muscle groups...You could do partial reps as advised above for different muscle groups.
     
  11. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">not long after he lifted the second time he takes up teh bar again, with a lot less weight and performs a kinda half assed squat hardly going down but just bending slightly, whatever that is it must work, anybody know what he was doing there?</div>

    I didn't see the vid but in Vicious' Pimp HST book he mentions doing that sort of thing at the end of a set where you do partials near lockout to get a good burn instead of a drop set. In this case though I think it's just a bit of extra work for the quads rather than a burn set. Much less strain on the hams and glutes.
     
  12. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    I LIKE that. I guess as long as your'e not on your repmax set it would be beneficial, not to mention you're allready set up and primed for it!
     
  13. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Sci

    I never do squats without a board under my heels, just can't do it any other way!

    As for partials unless we are talking real partials like 1/4 squats (seems that LOL also is mentioning the same), I already do box squats which is rather like a 1/2 squat and have achieved a PR of double my bodyweight, for which i am glad, however...the ATG squats besides not allowing me more than 90 Kgs. keeps my legs sore for about three days straight, the box squat even with a PR weight does not make me sore at all and although I know DOMS does not mean much, to me it means something's working with ATG's.

    If I don't hear any other opinions then it will have to be partials, which in a way can also be done by using J-reps, or some other partial type of training technique. [​IMG]
     
  14. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    Fausto...I am thinking and thinking...and well the only thing I can think of differently, would be do some unilateral training for each leg....instead of compounds.

    My thinking is well by doing this you will increase the overall strenght in each leg..by placing more emphasis on one at a time.

    If you do this and do 1 1/2 reps...this should make a difference.

    I do a similar techinque..but its with shoulders....so if you have access to a leg press machine...try a 2 week block of just training one leg at a time.

    Its worth a try???

    sorry...but thats all of got on this one.
     
  15. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    <div>
    (Fausto @ Aug. 04 2006,00:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I remember seeing that guy in the vid recently, squatting 295 Kg when he's only 99 himself and &quot;Ass to the Grass&quot;, not long after he lifted the second time he takes up teh bar again, with a lot less weight and performs a kinda half assed squat hardly going down but just bending slightly, whatever that is it must work, anybody know what he was doing there?</div>
    I take it you mean the footage form the 1993 Ironmind tapes?

    The second movement he is doing is an Olympic styled Good morning, which helps with the second pull of the clean/snatch. Notice he goes into the maximal extention at the end of the lift, and the starting position is around the starting area of the second pull.

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Now how in the hell does one beat that? Is there a technique either than the &quot;famous J-reps&quot; to get around this?</div>

    Unfortunately this is hte main sticking point for anyone doing squats in this style.
    Leverages in this area go to rubbish, so the muscles are firing but cannot deliver force to the bar due to hte leverages of the bones.

    You can do a number of things to work around this
    You can get stronger overall.
    You can increase the stretch reflex at the bottom
    and help with a greater rate of force development at the bottom of the lift.

    What fits into your training program I dont know
     
  16. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Aaron

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Unfortunately this is hte main sticking point for anyone doing squats in this style.</div>

    At least I am not deformed or lackjing somewhere, it is a common &quot;disease&quot; but as i see it somehow curable. [​IMG]

    I am happy to hear that, seems like the guys are all talking the same language.

    I knew you'd have an explanation for that &quot;funny&quot; good morning thing, so that is what it is for hey? [​IMG]

    Leverage, hey, but that son of a gun on the video did not seem to suffer from the same &quot;disease&quot; [​IMG] , joking, he must have trained through his sticking points pretty well or else he uses speed or even both.

    I am going to try and fit in some of these techniques before hitting squats or even on the off days so that i can get better, thanks.

    I forgot I had this article and have been reading it this weekend, interesting and as far i can see...it answers my question, whjat do you think, Aaron?

    Squat thery and execution
     
  17. Lifting N Tx

    Lifting N Tx New Member

    Fausto, I'll have to check out that article when I get time.

    Until then, I'd tend to vote for partials. With benches, not squats, I once did make dramatic jumps in my max by using partials. I'm thinking that as far as working in to an HST type routine, treat it like another exercise for the same area. Either do regular squats plus partials or using A/B type routine use partials on the b routine. Might be a bit cautious if using, say, half squats given that they allow large poundages.

    Squats are complicated like lol suggests. I have a similar but somewhat different response to squats as Scientific Muscle has. In my case I went from doing roughly 3/4 squats for medium reps in the upper 200s to parallel squats and had to cut the poundage a lot. Got really sore in glutes and hams going parallel, whereas not going so low with heavier weights mostly developed quads. I don't use a board, but turn my toes out some and keep my legs a bit wide.

    A sticking point with a complex compound exercise probably involves relative weakness in one of the several muscle groups involved. Training partials, particularly something like half squats, may allow increasing the load on some muscle groups that can't otherwise be loaded as heavily. Even if it doesn't directly affect the sticking point, I'd imagine that over time it would change where the sticking point is.

    It seems that the muscle group that is weakest at the sticking point itself gets fully loaded or it wouldn't be a sticking point.

    Anyway, I'm not as strong or knowledgeable as some who have posted, but thought I'd throw out the above as food for thought.
     
  18. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    I HAVE AN IDEA!!! Since we're HST devotees, and partials or other methods may not work in so well as we'd like, why not take advantage of the submax training?
    I'm not really enjoying the time it adds to my workout that the max-stim is taking, and this thread led me to the answer.

    When doing the submax section of your minicycle, why should we not STOP the rep right at the known sticking point, then press the rest of the rep out from there. That way you would be putting extra work on the muscle right where it's the weakest, and I'd believe we'd be able to overcome the sticking point by the time we get to the maxrep day.

    Profound Revelations are the stuff of life, heh. [​IMG]
     
  19. lcars

    lcars New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Aug. 06 2006,13:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I HAVE AN IDEA!!! Since we're HST devotees, and partials or other methods may not work in so well as we'd like, why not take advantage of the submax training?
    I'm not really enjoying the time it adds to my workout that the max-stim is taking, and this thread led me to the answer.

    When doing the submax section of your minicycle, why should we not STOP the rep right at the known sticking point, then press the rest of the rep out from there. That way you would be putting extra work on the muscle right where it's the weakest, and I'd believe we'd be able to overcome the sticking point by the time we get to the maxrep day.

    Profound Revelations are the stuff of life, heh.  [​IMG]</div>
    that makes alot of sense,ive tried that approach with squats and had some success.i dont have weakness's in any other exercise so i cant comment any further.
     
  20. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Quad

    Good idea, will give it a bash!
     

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