Specializing and metabolic stress while cutting
- Thread starter Lance
- Start date
I think the reason why most of the people don't use 15s or high metabolic work is because of CNS fatigue, and i think there was something about 15s sipping at the glycogen a lot, I could be wrong though. I think that leads to glycogen deplenishing.... and that makes the body resort to using fat for energy? thus creating the small, but ripped look in the muscle? That might be totally off but it's all i can remember from here and there. hahaha probably useless information but it was worth a try
pzhang
pzhang
OneMoreRep
New Member
I'm going to cut, last time i cut i used the typical HST exepct i used the 10 RMS for the entire time..
this time i'm going to just EAT alot more... KEEP my metabolism running like a fine tuned machine...
i plan on lifting 6 days a week, and i also plan on adding a few extra exercises.
i'm thinking about carb cycling,
like
Monday - 2 g per lb
Tuesday - 1 g per lb
Wednesday - 0.5 per lb
Thursday - 2 g per lb
Friday - 1 g per lb
Saturday - 0.5 g per lb
Sunday - LOADER - 3 g per lb
I'll probably do soemthin like this.
this time i'm going to just EAT alot more... KEEP my metabolism running like a fine tuned machine...
i plan on lifting 6 days a week, and i also plan on adding a few extra exercises.
i'm thinking about carb cycling,
like
Monday - 2 g per lb
Tuesday - 1 g per lb
Wednesday - 0.5 per lb
Thursday - 2 g per lb
Friday - 1 g per lb
Saturday - 0.5 g per lb
Sunday - LOADER - 3 g per lb
I'll probably do soemthin like this.
ugh togoth
New Member
I have these two studies which show, that it indeed is possible to gain a LOT of LBM even when you are on a energy restricted diet. In the first study though the study group has a fat% around 25.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez....bstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez....2077732
And remember, as seen in the first study, that casein rules, so drink your milk.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez....bstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez....2077732
And remember, as seen in the first study, that casein rules, so drink your milk.
Going along with those studies cited . . . I think it's theoretically possible to gain some muscle and lose some bodyfat . . .
A) your glycogen stores are relatively full
B) protein intake is very high
C) the pre/post WO is in surplus
D) the p38 signal is high (i.e. coming off decon and/or using very high load)
E) frequency of training is high
Of course, the problem is that both A) and D) are not sustainable. But it perhaps points to a technique of a more calorie-efficient bulking method. (*cough* DC diet . . .)
cheers,
Jules
A) your glycogen stores are relatively full
B) protein intake is very high
C) the pre/post WO is in surplus
D) the p38 signal is high (i.e. coming off decon and/or using very high load)
E) frequency of training is high
Of course, the problem is that both A) and D) are not sustainable. But it perhaps points to a technique of a more calorie-efficient bulking method. (*cough* DC diet . . .)
cheers,
Jules
ugh togoth
New Member
Personally I bulk without gaining any fatmass. I aim for an energy surplus around 500 kcal during the first 36 hours post workout. The last 10 hours I aim for an energy restriction of about 400 kcal. I eat a big meal a couple of hours before the next workout and continue the procedure.
Works fine.
Why gain 100% for 6 months, and then cut for 3 months where you might lose some LBM, when you can gain maybe 85% of max or more for all 9 months.
Works fine.
Why gain 100% for 6 months, and then cut for 3 months where you might lose some LBM, when you can gain maybe 85% of max or more for all 9 months.
I'm all for smart bulks, but the #1 reason why people fail on HST (or any more intense variation of it) is that they can't accept that they're not eating enough. I don't like selling people on the idea of fat-less bulks because it eventually means they end up putting maybe 1 or 2lbs per "bulking" cycle.
That being said, a common mistake I see with people's bulking habits are in eating the same calories on their workout and non-workout days. Common sense dictates you should be eating more during the first 24-hours than the last 12-24 hours.
To me, an ideal bulk is about 3:1 LBM to fat. A good bulk is 2:1. A decent bulk is 1:1 And anything worse than that requires a major revamp of your plan.
cheers,
Jules
That being said, a common mistake I see with people's bulking habits are in eating the same calories on their workout and non-workout days. Common sense dictates you should be eating more during the first 24-hours than the last 12-24 hours.
To me, an ideal bulk is about 3:1 LBM to fat. A good bulk is 2:1. A decent bulk is 1:1 And anything worse than that requires a major revamp of your plan.
cheers,
Jules
Hmm, I just realized I never got around to answering Lance's original question . . .
Actually, I think metabolic stress techniques are a good method for cutting, possibly bumping up or mantaining relatively high leptin levels while you're gaining. Remember that HIIT itself is a metabolic stress technique. Both Poliquin and Darden recommended high-rep weight training programs as a way to cut. Metabolic stress techniques should speed up fat loss. Some people used to do 20-rep squats as their cardio during fat-loss.
Obviously, there's the issue with inadequate glycogen stores and frying out your CNS. You can somewhat compensate by eating aggressive post-WO carbs, but calorie deficits eventually will deplete you.
There may be an issue of possibly further muscle catabolism by bumping up your muscle metabolism, particularly if your glycogen stores are depleted. The short 15-rep session by itself certainly wouldn't deplete your stores more than, say, riding a bike for 20 minutes. But the post-WO effects can be significant. Stress runs both ways. If you already have a high metabolism, then the extra weight training should be there to stimulate the p38 signal, not further incurring extra metabolic stress. If you don't have that high metabolism, then the extra stress techniques are a good idea. And, of course, eating higher amounts of protein will slow down the negative effects of extra metabolic stress techniques.
Therefore, it's not a clear answer. One reason why I'm attracted to the 912 idea for getting cut is that you can temporarily do both things (metabolic stress + very high mechanical strain), thereby creating a temporary situation where you can lose a lot of fat without losing a lot of muscle.
cheers,
Jules.
Actually, I think metabolic stress techniques are a good method for cutting, possibly bumping up or mantaining relatively high leptin levels while you're gaining. Remember that HIIT itself is a metabolic stress technique. Both Poliquin and Darden recommended high-rep weight training programs as a way to cut. Metabolic stress techniques should speed up fat loss. Some people used to do 20-rep squats as their cardio during fat-loss.
Obviously, there's the issue with inadequate glycogen stores and frying out your CNS. You can somewhat compensate by eating aggressive post-WO carbs, but calorie deficits eventually will deplete you.
There may be an issue of possibly further muscle catabolism by bumping up your muscle metabolism, particularly if your glycogen stores are depleted. The short 15-rep session by itself certainly wouldn't deplete your stores more than, say, riding a bike for 20 minutes. But the post-WO effects can be significant. Stress runs both ways. If you already have a high metabolism, then the extra weight training should be there to stimulate the p38 signal, not further incurring extra metabolic stress. If you don't have that high metabolism, then the extra stress techniques are a good idea. And, of course, eating higher amounts of protein will slow down the negative effects of extra metabolic stress techniques.
Therefore, it's not a clear answer. One reason why I'm attracted to the 912 idea for getting cut is that you can temporarily do both things (metabolic stress + very high mechanical strain), thereby creating a temporary situation where you can lose a lot of fat without losing a lot of muscle.
cheers,
Jules.
Thanks Vicious.
I was looking at it in that way sorta. With the high strain (i'm doing 5xweek fullbody, heavy style with LS's/negs/cluster etc. when their times come) and the metabolic work i've been eating much more while slowly cutting. When i start cutting the calories more, and my glycogen stores start depleting, i'll probably fill those back up on the weekends. I allready tend to do that easily, seeing as i usually eat what i want on the weekends.
I was looking at it in that way sorta. With the high strain (i'm doing 5xweek fullbody, heavy style with LS's/negs/cluster etc. when their times come) and the metabolic work i've been eating much more while slowly cutting. When i start cutting the calories more, and my glycogen stores start depleting, i'll probably fill those back up on the weekends. I allready tend to do that easily, seeing as i usually eat what i want on the weekends.
While cutting or when i bulked?[b said:
Cutting's a little harder going with the heavy weights. At first the DOMs is pretty bad, but i like that feeling the next day. Body all tight and pumped feeling. Feel like it's primed and ready to go at all times.
Muscle grew a bit at first, but i had a set back with a month of not being able to train. I was happy to get back most of what i finished off with during the previous bulk.
Bulking with this heavy style was amazing. Couldn't wait to get into the gym, it's so fun pumping the heavy iron AND having plenty of energy (calories
) to do so. My arms exploded while doing this. Once you start getting into those negatives with some loaded stretches, wooh! They went from 16.1-2 to 16.5 within a couple weeks. Honestly. It was crazy. I didn't measure my other body parts, arms are just easy to measure, but full body was really growing very fast. Shirt off, the overall thickness was really showing. Shirt on, you could feel your #### tugging at your back, chest, shoulders, arms, etc. Very cool stuff. I can't see myself training any other way unless i start getting injury problems or something.It's easy to manage TUT when you're not switching rep ranges. Other variables are added though. Metabolic work, specializing, etc. It's fun though, has taken my HST experience to the next level and it continues to evolve cycle to cycle.
I just wanted to add that the rodent studiues looking at muscle growth while fasting use synergistic ablation to elicit hypertorphy of the soleus.
Like most other questions about muscle hypertrophy, I would have to reply to Lance's original quesiton about growing while dieting with, "It depends."
Can a fat person who is sedentary elicit muscle hypertorphy while dieting (i.e. losing fat mass)? Yes. The sensitivity of the tissue is so high and the relative level of existing hypertrophy so low that the muscle tissue will hypertorphy with the proper stimulus (HST?) even though calories are restricted.
Now lets look at a different example. Lets take a guy who's been lifting for years without stopping and has simply gotten pudgy from perpetual "bulking cycles". This individul, if he's trained properly, is close the maximum amount of muscle that his drug free system is willing to support. In addition, this mass has been maintained on either maintenance or just over for quite a while. His absolute body fat percetange is relatively low compared to the obese guy.
Will this guy put on muscle when he starts his diet? No. Will he likely lose muscle? Yes, but only a little. When his caloric intake returns to normal he will regain what he lost from a short dieting period.
One should keep in mind that even guys who are competing, and using a good deal of drugs, once they have reached their personal limit as far as muscle mass goes, will lose muscle when they begin their diet. Even while using a lot of testosterone. Granted, they won't lose near as much as a guy who's natural, but they will lose muscle nevertheless.
So, whether you are able to gain, maintain, or lose muscle with your diet depends not just on your diet and training, but also on your personal physical characteristics.
Like most other questions about muscle hypertrophy, I would have to reply to Lance's original quesiton about growing while dieting with, "It depends."
Can a fat person who is sedentary elicit muscle hypertorphy while dieting (i.e. losing fat mass)? Yes. The sensitivity of the tissue is so high and the relative level of existing hypertrophy so low that the muscle tissue will hypertorphy with the proper stimulus (HST?) even though calories are restricted.
Now lets look at a different example. Lets take a guy who's been lifting for years without stopping and has simply gotten pudgy from perpetual "bulking cycles". This individul, if he's trained properly, is close the maximum amount of muscle that his drug free system is willing to support. In addition, this mass has been maintained on either maintenance or just over for quite a while. His absolute body fat percetange is relatively low compared to the obese guy.
Will this guy put on muscle when he starts his diet? No. Will he likely lose muscle? Yes, but only a little. When his caloric intake returns to normal he will regain what he lost from a short dieting period.
One should keep in mind that even guys who are competing, and using a good deal of drugs, once they have reached their personal limit as far as muscle mass goes, will lose muscle when they begin their diet. Even while using a lot of testosterone. Granted, they won't lose near as much as a guy who's natural, but they will lose muscle nevertheless.
So, whether you are able to gain, maintain, or lose muscle with your diet depends not just on your diet and training, but also on your personal physical characteristics.
Bryan,
I never asked about growing while dieting. In fact, i don't know how this topic started in my thread.
I was simply asking about doing specializing tactics (loaded stretches, very heavy negatives, etc.) and metabolic work (15's sets, pulses, etc.) while dieting. It would seem pointless to not just stick with a very basic, low volume, low frequency routine while dieting due to the fact that you are not going to grow any muscle, you're just trying to lose fat. If anything, by applying so many factors with a reduced calorie diet, you're more vulnerable to burnout and cns fatigue. (the words we use to go around 'overtraining' )
Now, i'm currently doing these things. 5xweek, full body, specializing tactics, metabolic work, the whole thing. I just don't want to be 'spinning my wheels' doing more than is really necessary. I'm not sure if there are benefits, i just imagine their are and thus didn't attempt to change my current HST routine.
I never asked about growing while dieting. In fact, i don't know how this topic started in my thread.
I was simply asking about doing specializing tactics (loaded stretches, very heavy negatives, etc.) and metabolic work (15's sets, pulses, etc.) while dieting. It would seem pointless to not just stick with a very basic, low volume, low frequency routine while dieting due to the fact that you are not going to grow any muscle, you're just trying to lose fat. If anything, by applying so many factors with a reduced calorie diet, you're more vulnerable to burnout and cns fatigue. (the words we use to go around 'overtraining'
)Now, i'm currently doing these things. 5xweek, full body, specializing tactics, metabolic work, the whole thing. I just don't want to be 'spinning my wheels' doing more than is really necessary. I'm not sure if there are benefits, i just imagine their are and thus didn't attempt to change my current HST routine.