soy protein

M

mikeynov

Super Moderator
Staff member
i've heard soy protein damned ad nauseum by T-mag and such for its phytoestrogens, but I'm curious if anybody has ever actually bothered to administer a reasonable amount of soy in someone's diet to see if it has any effect whatsoever on accruing muscle mass. has this been done?

i'm curious what the impact of 20 or 30 grams of soy a day would be for the average male adult. for example, i enjoy EAS advantage edge bars which include soy protein isolate. A) these bars don't include gelatin as a primary protein source and B) they taste pretty good, which is a total rarity.

arthur jones and a variety of bodybuilders for years have advocated supplementing one's own diet with some extra soy, and while that's anecodtal and stunningly non-scientific, if soy were profoundly estrogenic to the point of hurting muscular gain or fat loss, i'd have think somebody would have noticed by now.
any thoughts?
 
Dont think anyone has done research into size, but

If its just a part of an overall diet, its bound to be very miniscule effect, if any.

THey are weak estrogens.

Weak estrogens could bind to estrogen receptors instead of stronger estrogen.

We could all grow man boobies from even the thought of it.
 
boobies, boobies, boobies.........mmm

i might add some to my girlfriend's breakfast cereal without her knowing and see what happens. if she grows a cupsize ill be sure to let you know!
 
i eat 3 atkins bars a day when i started cutting on low carb diet. contains Protein blend (soy protein isolate, hydrolized collagen, whey protein isolate, calcium/sodium caseinate).

is this a bad idea?
 
come on man, don't just laugh at me.

what's the deal? is this stuff bad?

i am on the go all day long, i own my own business, 4 kids & am pres. of my local Little League. Bars are very convenient for me to make sure I eat every 3 hours.

:confused:?:confused:?:confused:?:confused:
 
A guy at my Gym recomended that I swich to soy while I had a cold. Milk and whey help create mucus. He only uses Soy and has a great build. It definatly works on him. My take would be it probably works dam well. Better than Whey? I don't know --probably not. But still a good sup.

Bob
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (scratch @ May 01 2003,12:47)]come on man, don't just laugh at me.
what's the deal? is this stuff bad?
i am on the go all day long, i own my own business, 4 kids & am pres. of my local Little League. Bars are very convenient for me to make sure I eat every 3 hours.
:confused:?:confused:?:confused:?:confused:
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From what I understand hydrolyed collagen is "non-functional" protein. They actually add to the total grams of protein for the bar but the biological value of this protein is virtually zero. It's like eating Jell-O to get your protein requirements. I don't know the exact percentage of the protein that comes from collagen is, but if it's an Atkins bar you can be sure it's a rather large percentage.

There are plenty of other protein bars out there that will work better though and that have much better protein content.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (scratch @ May 01 2003,12:47)]come on man, don't just laugh at me.
what's the deal? is this stuff bad?
i am on the go all day long, i own my own business, 4 kids & am pres. of my local Little League. Bars are very convenient for me to make sure I eat every 3 hours.
:confused:?:confused:?:confused:?:confused:
Click to expand...
if you see 'collagen' or 'gelatin' as one of the main protein ingredients, it's usually kind of crap. these items aren't 'useless,' they just contain a very poor amino acid spectrum.

just buy some EAS Advantage bars (the ones with the proclaimed 'non-impact carbs,' these being glycerine, which actually do NOT elevate blood sugar noticably with the amount present), metrx protein plus, or something like that. these don't have collage or gelatin as a main protein source and are still 'low carb.'
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]come on man, don't just laugh at me.

what's the deal? is this stuff bad?

i am on the go all day long, i own my own business, 4 kids & am pres. of my local Little League. Bars are very convenient for me to make sure I eat every 3 hours.

:confused:
Click to expand...

sorry man. i wasnt laughing at you.
there is no real evidence either way. Soy has proported benefits to health aswell as suggested negatives. mostly, these pros and cons are theoretical.
unfortunatley you just have to decide yourself whether you want to eat it or not.
Personally i wouldnt worry....but noone really knows. If you are concerned, then find a susbstitute. there are other bars that are better quality anyway.
 
no problem, with all the work I have done to get in shape the past 3 yrs I would hate to see it go to waste because I switched to an atkins bar.

the only reason I went to it was because I am cutting down for summer & am on low carb, high fat & high protein.

the diet works, and the atkins bars are high protein & high fat. i cannot find any other bars that are high protein & high fat.

thanks for the input.
 
scratch

My vote ( along with mikeynov) is for the new EAS non-impact carbs (silver package)
They taste good and good on the go.
 
Soy is a good "protein", however, soy isoflavones do impart some estrogenic activity. It has several beneficial properties that whey/casein doesn't seem to exhibit. Most of these are related to antioxidants, cholesterol levels, etc. Keep in mind that soy protein, without all the other phytochemicals, is just like other fast proteins...no better no worse.

A recent review of the effects of soy isoflavones on male endocrine function don't show any significant effect, however, this review did not consider the high amounts of soy protein that would be taken by an athlete or bodybuilder.

Here is a clip frm the study:
"Three dietary intervention studies have reported the effects of soy or soy phytoestrogen consumption on reproductive hormones in men. Habito et al. (38 ) performed a randomized crossover study of 42 men with a mean age of 45.7 y who consumed 150 g lean meat or 290 g tofu (containing 70 mg isoflavones) daily for 4 wk. Blood concentrations of estradiol, testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and androstanediol glucuronide did not differ between the two diets. The mean testosterone-estradiol ratio was 10% lower (P = 0.05), SHBG was 9% higher (P = 0.01), and the free androgen index (total testosterone/SHBG x 100) was 7% lower (P = 0.06) after tofu consumption. This slight reduction in androgen activity was not confirmed by Nagata et al. (39 ), who reported a parallel-arm study of 34 men with a mean age of 32.4 y, one-half of whom consumed an average of 343 mL soymilk (containing 48 mg isoflavones) daily for 2 mo. Blood concentrations of estradiol, total and free testosterone, and SHBG did not differ between the two groups, although estrone concentrations tended to decrease in the group consuming soymilk. These results are generally consistent with those of Mitchell et al. (30 ), who found no changes in serum concentrations of estradiol, testosterone, follicle-stimulating hormone or luteinizing hormone in men consuming a tablet containing 40 mg/d of soy isoflavones."

The effects of soy depend on the amount that you use. The more you use the bigger effect it will have on your endocrine function.
 
I'd be interested in comments on this article:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Soy protein BAD, I don't think so.
By Alex Rogers, Proteinfactory.com

Recently, an article was written by a certain Net Magazine, claiming that soy protein was a "Bad" Protein to use if you were a bodybuilder looking to add lean muscle mass. The article concluded with the use of research studies, that soy proteins' phytoestorgens actually lowered testosterone production in animal studies. Hence lower testosterone levels, higher estrogen levels, no muscle gains.

But of course there are always two sides to the story, and I think I have a better case, jury listen up!!!

I would have to disagree, and nutritional experts agree, that soy protein is an excellent protein to use if you're a bodybuilder using the protein to gain muscle mass. Here are a bunch of reasons.

Hormonal Studies

1) A study found that soy protein isolate (daidzein) may have a gender specific normalizing effect on sex-hormone prduction. Male lab animals experienced greater testosterone and growth-hormone excretion as well as muscle growth" This contradicts the study that found that genestein decreased testosterone serum.

2) Another study found that soy may be actually antiestrogenic. . They may also act as antiestrogens by competing for the binding sites of estrogen receptors or the active site of the estrogen biosynthesizing and metabolizing enzymes, such as aromatase and estrogen-specific 17 beta-hydroxysteroid oxidoreductase (type 1).

3) Probably the best research study contracting the one used by the author of "The bad protein" is this.

The phytoestrogens are only found in raw soy products. Not soy protein isolates, which are used as protein supplements for bodybuilders.

"There are very little data on effects of phytoestrogens in males. Estrogenic effects in wildlife have been described but the evidence for the role of phytoestrogens is indirect and seen under conditions of excessive exposure."

And what is most interesting about this study is that it was conducted by one of the same researchers at the same univeristy as the study that found genistein lowered testoserone serum levels. This researcher concluded that even though he found genestein has estrogenic effects, it really cant be concluded because of the above statement in his other reasearch findings. Hence, he found soy to be estrogenic, but it really cant be "hard" evidence because there is not enough proof and it involves ridiculous conditions.

See what I mean by two sides to every story..

Positive Benefits of soy

1) The amino acid profile of soy is excellent. If you don't know by now the Glutamic Acid level is higher than whey. Why? Mainly because it is a plant protein and not dairy.
2) Soy has been proven to lower heart disease risks and cancer. Now there are about a million studies on this statement. I not going to quote any.
3) Soy protein actually improves kidney function.
4) When soy was combined with a carbohydrate in comparison with casein. Lower bodyfat gains were observed.

Character witnessess

1) Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale , probably one of the greatest sports nutritonist authors to ever live. (and trust me on this one) quoted in Muscle Media Magazine. "I use a combination of soy, casein, and whey protein that I make up myself from three different products, each one containing on of the protein isolates in quality form"
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The article quotes an important, but often-overlooked point:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The phytoestrogens are only found in raw soy products. Not soy protein isolates, which are used as protein supplements for bodybuilders.
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The question of protein quality is irrelevant; soy is good protein. The only argument bandied about against soy as a protein source has to do with the estrogen-like effect, yet soy as a protein powder -- soy isolate -- does not have the phytoestrogens. It's ONLY an issue if you consume large amounts of ray soymilk and tofu. In cooked tofu it's reduced, in tempe I believe it's gone, and in most soy-based products that use TVP (like faux meat burgers, etc.), it's gone. . . and in soy protein isolate, as used in sports products, it's irrelevant.
 
Not to say that soy is bad, but there are two points I don't like in this article:

1) From the studies he mentions, either 2 or 3 may prove his point. Not both of them. I mean, if there are no phytoestrogens in soy isolate, then how can they bind on estrogen receptors ?

2) Glutamic acid content of whey is already high (only slightly less than soy's) and this is certainly not because 'it is a plant protein': Casein has higher levels of glutamic acid. And since when is glutamic acid an indicator of protein quality ?

I think that soy is a good protein, something to take every now and then, but certainly not your exclusive source of protein powder.
 
Mimic, most studies on soy are NOT done with soy protein isolate, the powder you might buy in a sports store. Most of the research is focused on the effects of soy-based foods on the general population.

Look at the two studies Blade cited as examples -- one used tofu, and the other used soymilk.
 
I didn't say anything different. I just pointed out that we can't have the antiestrogenic benefits from the soy powder as the article implies. And there is some contradiction: are phytoestrogens good like study no.2 says ? And if they are, why should we be happy with study no.3 ?
 
I read it differently. . .

I read (2) as saying: the soy "effect" is debatable; it may be estrogenic, but one study shows it may actually be antiestrogenic.

I read (3) as saying: either way, it's irrelevant when talking about refined soy protein powder.

Therefore, I don't see the contradiction.

But I don't understand bringing glutamic acid into the argument any more than you do.
 
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