Slow bulk

L

liegelord

New Member
The two injuries I've had in the last 5 months have really wrecked havoc on most of my lifts. I'm pretty much back to 100% and will be starting a 2-3 month routine focused on strength. I took a week off because I was just burned out and was losing strength. I was probably doing way too many heavy pulls because I could not press due to my wrist injury.

This is the routine, focus off the bench and on OH pressing:

Mon: olympic squats, push press, Pendlay rows, dips
Tues: OH squats, snatch work - hang, full and power snatches
Wed: deadlifts, bench, chins, front squats
Th: clean & jerks, squat cleans
Fri: olympic squats, push press, Pendlay rows, dips

Lifts as of a week ago (none are max effort) in lbs:

Squat: 355x13
deadlift: 435x10
bench: 225x5
row: 255x10
dips: bw+125x5
push press: 205x5
chin: bw+100x2
full squat clean: 245x5

Volume will be low considering the frequency. I am tired of struggling with the bench, I get to about 255x4 and then it tanks and I'm back to 225 for some reason the next week. maybe once a week will help.

Comments and suggestions welcome.
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I struggle myself with the bench press, yet my dip #'s are so much better (180 x 5 for bench vs. bw+80 x 5 for dips.)

Leiege, are you doing SST or HST?
 
The bench is pretty simple: pecs, delts and triceps work together to push the bar. obviously your pecs and triceps are strong (your dips are very strong), and your delts are also not the problem judging by your push press.
I have a hunch your external rotators need strengthening. Stevejones had a dramatic increase in bench press by doing rotator cuff exercises for a few months. I am also having some success with it so far.

From exrx.net:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Infraspinatus Weakness

Increased risk of shoulder injury during shoulder transverse flexion and transverse adduction activities, particularly when elbow travels behind shoulder. Risk is compounded with a protracted shoulder girdle. During the end of a throwing movement, high deceleration forces required of the posterior cuff can cause breakdown in their tendons near their humeral attachment. Strengthening of the rear deltoid and long head of the triceps brachii can also help stabilize shoulder, although to a lesser extent as compared the infraspinatus. External rotation-muscular endurance / internal rotation-muscular endurance should be greater than 70%.

Examples of affected exercises with suggestions for high risk individuals:
Bench Press: Bring bar lower on chest, keeping elbows closer to sides.
Chest Press: Elevate seat so elbows are closer to sides
Range of motion may need to be limited so elbows do not go behind shoulders</div>

I have found this exercise to be the best to help benching and strengthen my shoulder:
Shoulder horn type exercise.

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255x4 is very weak for someone who can do 435x10 on deads...my first guess would be that your body is not balanced and something is amiss

I think learning some things about your rc's, as scimuscle suggested, is a good thing to do.  I'd explore that idea and test your rc strength.  If that is up to par, and strength on the bench is important to you, then I wouldn't slow down the frequency, if anything I would increase it up to 3 times per week (following the guidelines of a good bench program, of course).  

You might just have a very disadvantaged bodytype for the bench. If you aren't too worried about strength, and are a bodybuilder...then I'd just forget about the bench press altogether.
 
Just a guideline according to Rippetoe:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The shoulder horn exercise can also be done over the knee from a sitting position only your weight will be moving over the leg both ways but the movement is the same.</div>

Should be able to do 25 reps with 9% of 1 RM for bench, if not then you RC's are weak and you should try to achieve this benchmark!
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Fausto, you think the sit-down version of shoulder horns are better? I have thought some RC work may be good for my lagging bench press, and even help in deeper dips (I do close grip). It's more of a rehab for strength exercise, so is that why Rippletoe advises doing higher reps?
 
Before advice goes too far in the wrong direction, I'll add that if you have rotator injuries (got pain lifting an arm?) then the standing L flyes are about four levels up from the beginning of an RC program; not recommended to start with.
I was amazed at how hard lying L flyes were at first...with just a 10lb plate! It's been 3 weeks I think, and I just did my first standing flyes yesterday.
 
<div>
(colby2152 @ Mar. 20 2007,10:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Quad, do you mean lateral raises?

No injuries for me though, I may add the horns in as part of my warmup on my bench press day.</div>
People disagree on this, and there are some programs out there that have you do your rc exercises before you bench, but most good sources of information I have read strongly suggest that you ONLY do rc exercises after you have finished your workout. The rc muscles are tiny, and you do not want to exhaust them before you bench press, that could put your rcs even more at risk.
 
Yes, and the lateral raises are similar to the lying L flyes and lying laterals. I lay on a bench on my side and with the elbow resting on my ribs, the arm at a 90degree angle, (that's the &quot;L&quot;) let the weight hang down and rotate the arm (elbow stays put) lifting the weight to straight up.
The second exersize is while on your side, let the arm hang straight down from the shoulder and rotate the whole arm upwards as in your link. It's like ten reps for each exersize, each arm (you always do both) and when that stops hurting, two sets of ten for each, then three.
THEN you graduate to the standing L flyes (shoulder horn) and make note that the elbow is held a bit lower than the shoulder, NOT level with it. I use a standing curl pad raised to the right height.
As Steve said, it's a finishing exersize, and it's NOT done with a big weight.
 
Monday's workout, went well and fast. Someone came in to use the squat rack and we trained together. Here's the numbers, some lifts I am re-setting.

Squats: 1x355
Push-press: 185 3x5 (doing negatives, so weight is lighter)
Pendlay Row: 240 2x10
dips: 145 6,5 (negs)

15 minutes light cardio. Bodyweight 219.
 
Tonight was snatch work and was focused on form, I have not been able to do much overhead work because of the wrist injury. Two coaches were in tonight so it was a huge bonus. Focused more on hang snatches because I developed a habit of swinging the bar in front of me the coaches pointed out. I had no idea I was doing it.

Thanks for the comments guys. stevejones, I know my bench sucks especially when compared to my deadlift and I weigh 219, I think it's a leverage issue. I am built to pull, I have long arms and short legs, 5'11 with a 30 inseam.

My dip is bw+125x5, combined weight is 344; could it still be weak RC's? I'll have to test it to know for sure. I'm more inclined to agree it's weak RC's as opposed to weak tri's &amp; delts. If it is RC's, then I'll work to strengthen them and probably work the bench 3x a week as you suggested.

Also, I have no plans on competing as a powerlifter, only in olympic lifts, so a big bench is not necessary. I know olympic lifters who bench 400, but they do not work the bench often. So I'll still work to bench 405, I'm just not going to be pushing that much this year.
 
<div>
(colby2152 @ Mar. 19 2007,21:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Leiege, are you doing SST or HST?</div>
I'm using the HST principals with a focus on strength. I'm eating to gain 1/2 a pound a week. It keeps the fat to a minimum and the strength gains are good.

I've noticed that there are definitely diminishing returns with HST. At least for me, the strength gains from each HST cycle were not enough to continue with great gains in LBM. Yeah, I can still gain weight through a cycle, but it tends to be more fat than muscle.

I want to get some big PR's this year before I do another straight HST cycle. For squats, I am only doing one work set of 13 and will keep adding weight every workout until I hit about 8. Then I will start doing 3x5.
 
That's how I felt before the 5x5! Hey, two things. One is, I'm doing BW+135x5 for wide dips with a badly impinged rotator cuff, and you're stronger than I on every other lift, so it could be the beginning of problems with it. Do you have any pain lifting your arm laterally?
The other thing is that video, in Colby's post #8. That guy is, according to the rotator cuff solution, doing the standing L completely wrong. The elbow is too high and should be resting on a surface to take the delts out of the lifts. It makes no sense to use the delts, which are overpowering the small rotator muscles which is what causes the problems to begin with. The rotator muscles hold the humerus in the socket; when the delts, pecs, and lats, overpower them, the humerus moves out of place.
Of course, all we BB'ers do is build the show muscles.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The elbow is too high and should be resting on a surface to take the delts out of the lifts. It makes no sense to use the delts, which are overpowering the small rotator muscles which is what causes the problems to begin with.</div>

That's exactly the problem I had with it at the end of my workout yesterday. I'll take the advice with using a curl pad for support.
 
quad, no, I have no pain when lifting my arms. The only pain I have is when thinking about the train wreck of a workout yesterday.
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I haven't eaten right for a few days and haven't slept well. I bombed on deadlifts and everything just felt real, real heavy. Last time I deadlifted was 2 weeks ago 435x10 and a triple.

deadlift: 440x4, 2, 2, 2 (I still got 10 reps, but it almost killed me)
bench: 205 3x5
chins: 125x5, 3, 2 (neg)
front squats: 275x1 (wrist pain, so I stopped)

tonight's olympic lifting went just as bad, for the same reasons. I did a few cleans with 100k, but was too fatigued from last night and lowered the weight to be safe:

squat cleans 90k 2x5
hang clean &amp; jerk 70k 4x3
 
I have found sleep to be very important in strength training. I need at least 7 hours of sleep...8-9 hours is even better! When I sleep well, I get stronger, without it, I feel drained.
 
My bench sucks compared to my other lifts too, especially compared to my row. I did the RC test and was able to do a lot more than 9% (or 10%, or whatever it was) of my bench, so... that wasn't the problem for me. Don't those sort of problems usually occur in people who focus too much on benching and not enough on other lifts?

Considering you have a very strong row, I doubt that's the problem. But if you find out, let me know what works for you. Personally, I've just decided not to bench anymore. If you are going for olympic lifting, then why bother? Dropping bench allows you to focus more on overhead pressing anyway.
 
I agree about the bench, though I am not going to drop it completely, just to once a week. I'm doing push-presses 2x now in place.

Tonight's workout was another train wreck, though I did complete my total reps. Man was everything heavy tonight. I'm gonna get plenty of sleep this weekend and get my diet back on track. Here's the numbers:

squat: 360 2x6, + a double
push press: 190 3x5 (negs)
pendlay row: 245 2x10
dips: 150x6, 5 (negs)
 
You throw some serious poundage around, that's for sure.

I give anyone credit that can do the kind of lifting you're doing on a M-F schedule. My CNS would be in the toilet after just one week!
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