PSMF and Protein

TunnelRat

TunnelRat

Active Member
I'm considering Lyle's Rapid Fat Loss Diet. It is a sort of modified PSMF.

For those who are involved with weight training and have a body fat percentage less than 15%, Lyle recommends consuming 2 grams of protein per pound of LBM. In my case that would mean about 250 grams of protein (and thus 1,000 calories!) before even considering the amount of vegetables and EFAs he proposes.

At my body weight of 143 lbs, and an activity level barely above sedentary, I figure that maintenance for me should be about 1725 calories per day.

If I follow Lyle's recommendations, my daily caloric intake would be at least 1225 calories per day. That would leave me a deficit of roughly 500 calories per day.

However, Lyle doesn't recommend following his Rapid Weight Loss diet for longer than 11 or 12 days. Thus I would have a maximum caloric deficit of 6,000 over the 12 day period. Divide that by 3,500 (for a pound of fat), and I lose a whopping 1.7 lbs...
sad.gif


That seems like a whole lot of effort for a very small return. Am I doing my numbers wrong? Or am I approaching this improperly?

I'm not very good at diet stuff, and less good with numbers. I would appreciate some advice from knowledgeable posters.
 
I think the whole point of the RFLD is that it is fat loss and not just a way to reduce body weight. If you are around 10% bf it's going to get harder and harder to just lose just fat (especially if you are a natty trainer). So, I guess if you can lose 1.7lb of mainly fat in just 12 days that's actually pretty darn good. What training does Lyle recommend over those 12 days?
 
Hey TR,

Well, one thing I noticed is you have about 200 calories of carbs factored into your estimate and that is not going to work. I also think your maintenance is probably higher than you have estimated. You could also knock protein down to 200g as that would be close enough to 2 g per pound of LBM. Also in your case you might have to treat your case like it's a woman's case. Lyle gives some pointers for this as they can have this problem where the deficit isn't all that huge.

However, if you are 143 pounds and anywhere near normal height for a man, I have to ask why are you concerned with losing weight to the point of doing something like PSMF. I think the normal reaction would be advice to drink a gallon of milk a day and gain some weight dude! What are your reasons, goals, philosophy on why you want to do this if you don't mind my asking.
 
LoL ~ Lyle recommends lifting heavy about twice a week.
<div>
(nipponbiki @ Jul. 23 2008,12:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well, one thing I noticed is you have about 200 calories of carbs factored into your estimate and that is not going to work. </div>
The ten fish oil tablets alone amount to 100 calories, then add some vegetables.

I also think your maintenance is probably higher than you have estimated.

Perhaps, I've never been any good with these diet formulas.

You could also knock protein down to 200g as that would be close enough to 2 g per pound of LBM.

That's what I have been considering. I was wondering if Lyle confirms his 2g/pound of LBM elsewhere.

Also in your case you might have to treat your case like it's a woman's case. Lyle gives some pointers for this as they can have this problem where the deficit isn't all that huge.

Yes, I've looked at that. It's mainly a matter of a bit more aerobic exercise.

However, if you are 143 pounds and anywhere near normal height for a man, I have to ask why are you concerned with losing weight to the point of doing something like PSMF.

I suppose we'd have to argue what is &quot;normal height for a man&quot;. I think most of you guys are way too tall...!
wink.gif


I think the normal reaction would be advice to drink a gallon of milk a day and gain some weight dude!

Actually, I am heavier now, and with more LBM, than at any time previous in my life.

What are your reasons, goals, philosophy on why you want to do this if you don't mind my asking.

I'm a simple guy with simple tastes. I just thought it might be nice to be able to see my abs.
 
<div>
(TunnelRat @ Jul. 23 2008,2:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What are your reasons, goals, philosophy on why you want to do this if you don't mind my asking.

I'm a simple guy with simple tastes. I just thought it might be nice to be able to see my abs.</div>
TR, at 9.4% BF you can't see your abs? Have you considered doing weighted crunches HST-like? Progressive loads and all?
 
<div>
(electric @ Jul. 23 2008,1:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">TR, at 9.4% BF you can't see your abs? Have you considered doing weighted crunches HST-like? Progressive loads and all?</div>
Yup, I've been doing weighted crunches on the ab machine, progressing the weights faithfully.

There may be a matter of some excess skin around my waist. My serratus is sharply cut, but for the most part my abs do not show.
 
Isn't that a sign of insulin resistance? I'm the same way(even the same weight) and diabetes runs in my family. I have to admit my diet isn't clean, but it's odd that the rest of the body can be so defined but fat accumulates over the abs. I think that your maintenance calculations of 1,700-1,800 calories for your weight at barely above sedentary is spot on. That's the calorie range I came up with for myself as well.
 
<div>
(TunnelRat @ Jul. 23 2008,12:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">For those who are involved with weight training and have a body fat percentage less than 15%, Lyle recommends consuming 2 grams of protein per pound of LBM. In my case that would mean about 250 grams of protein (and thus 1,000 calories!) before even considering the amount of vegetables and EFAs he proposes.</div>
In this post Lyle says 1-1.5 g protein / lb lean body mass. That'll help shave some calories.
 
The Rapid Fatloss Handbook explicitly states 2g protein/lb of LBM for a category 1 dieter that is weight training. It also states that the idea of the diet is to minimize fat/carbs to create the greatest calorie deficit possible while maintaining an healthy environment for muscle. As such, the only fats allowed are the essential fatty acids provided by 10g of fishoil.

46g carb is kinda high... did you use a sugary drink (which is allowable) during your workout?

Fat accumulation patterns are largely genetic. Some guys just carry all of their fat in their stomach.
 
<div>
(bgates1654 @ Jul. 24 2008,11:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">46g carb is kinda high... did you use a sugary drink (which is allowable) during your workout?</div>
Protein Carbs:

Eggbeaters --- 24 4
salsa --- 0 3
3/4 cup fat-free cottage cheese --- 23 8
Whey powder --- 46 6
More cottage cheese --- 30 10
1/4 lb lean beef --- 21 0
Green Beans --- 1 5
5 oz Tuna --- 40 0
Even more cottage cheese 30 10
____
Total --- 215 46
 
TR, do you like fish at all? It's pretty bland on a PSMF since there isn't a whole lot you can use to flavor them with, but there are several varieties of fish that are almost all protein, which only very minimal amounts of fat/carbs. For my first PSMF, I was actually getting the bulk of my calories from cans of tuna fish, but those get very old, very fast. Making omelets with low-carb, fat free cheese and fat free egg mix, then throwing the tuna in there instead of eating it by itself can kinda help. But to be honest, I don't eat tuna anymore ever since that first PSMF. I'm not sure I ever will again.
But other than tuna, you can get fillets that are great once you cook them properly and give you plenty of protein without the carbs and fats.

You might hate fish after your PSMF is over though.

On the bright side, at least you only need 250 grams of protein per day. Could be worse. When I did PSMF, I didn't even try that hard to get 2 times BW because it was just too much of a pain.
 
It doesnt need to be bland though. You can use anything that doesnt break the principles of the diet. Nearly all spices are fair game.

Ooh... its that pesky cottage cheese. I cant stand fat free cottage cheese so I never ran into that.
 
Yeah, normal dairy has too many carbs, you have to dump it if you want to do PSMF.

For eggs, why not just separate the yolk and use normal eggs? That's what I always do.

Going back to my original post a bit, please don't take any offense, but this is how I see your situation. You may have a
relatively large amount of LBM in that it is more than you have ever had as you said, but you do not have an absolutely large amount of LBM as compared to human men in general, especially that specialized subset that trains. I think Lyle's recommendations for PSMF dudes under 10% bodyfat are specifically aimed at serious bodybuilders who DO have a large amount of absolute LBM, in which case is easy to lose. I honestly think in your case, you don't need to worry so much about it. Think of it like a bell curve, the closer you get to zero (pounds of LBM) the more severe the angles get. Obviously you will never get to zero as that is just the way the principal works, plus you would die before that happened. Since you don't have so much absolute LBM, I would think you are already pretty close to the limits of that bell curve.

And, I think you know what Rip would say in this case. If you want to see your abs, gain 50 pounds, then cut off the fat. (well actually, that would be what the polite version of Rip would say if he existed).
 
Yeah, normal dairy has too many carbs, you have to dump it if you want to do PSMF.

I agree. Looking at my figures for Wednesday, I realized how much of the carb figure came from the cottage cheese. That was pretty much my staple while I was on the &quot;Colby&quot; diet (1400 calories and 140 grams of protein wasn't so hard when I wasn't worried about carbs...!).

For eggs, why not just separate the yolk and use normal eggs? That's what I always do.

I'm not that good of a cook. Eggbeaters come already made.

Going back to my original post a bit, please don't take any offense, but this is how I see your situation. You may have a relatively large amount of LBM in that it is more than you have ever had as you said, but you do not have an absolutely large amount of LBM as compared to human men in general, especially that specialized subset that trains.

I suspect you are probably right. At 5' 2&quot; and 143 lbs, I can buy my suits off the rack in Taipei or Beijing, but I have to have them custom made in the States. They just don't come in a size small enough for me.

I think Lyle's recommendations for PSMF dudes under 10% bodyfat are specifically aimed at serious bodybuilders who DO have a large amount of absolute LBM, in which case is easy to lose. I honestly think in your case, you don't need to worry so much about it.

By this, do you mean to say that I probably could settle for 1.5 g of protein per lb of LBM rather than trying to get 2g per?

Think of it like a bell curve,

Oh yeah, I live way out on the end of the bell curve. Average height for a male is about 5' 10&quot;; even a short man is 5' 6&quot;. I am way out to the left of that.
sad.gif


the closer you get to zero (pounds of LBM) the more severe the angles get. Obviously you will never get to zero as that is just the way the principal works, plus you would die before that happened. Since you don't have so much absolute LBM, I would think you are already pretty close to the limits of that bell curve.

Which, frankly, goes along with much of what I had feared: once my body fat percentage hit the single digits, I've pretty much gone about as far as I can down that alley.

And, I think you know what Rip would say in this case. If you want to see your abs, gain 50 pounds, then cut off the fat. (well actually, that would be what the polite version of Rip would say if he existed).

&quot;That wizard's just a crazy old man.
I don't think he exists anymore.
He died about the same time as your father.&quot;
(~ Luke's Uncle Owen)
 
TR

ive scanned thru you thread here, cant say ive read every post in detail but......
the main thing that jumps out at me is your considering rapid fat loss or PSMF style dieting to reach your final goals (which are? maybe i missed it)

at under 10%bf the only thing that will go rapid is water and muscle if you diet too hard. its just too hard to maintain the muscle while dropping measurable amounts of fat at 9% while using the same methods for 12-20%.

i noticed you placed yourself at the barely above sedentary level for activity. doing any cardio? perhaps something along the lines of lyles stubb. fat solution protocols (since you obv. like his stuff) could be beneficial. even with those progress is going to be slow(er) then your probably used to.

again, once you drop below 10% you move into a whole diff. catagorie. your no longer simply losing wgt with basic diet/exer. strategies. you have to &quot;take it to the next level&quot; with diet and exer. over a longer period of time in order to keep the muscle while dropping what little fat is left.

good luck
 
As you/many have said, I think cardio would make a huge difference.

Even 20-40 mins here and there would increase your deficit(s) significantly.

In the book Lyle alludes to the fact that leaner folks may have to do some aerobics as well.

If it makes you feel better, 1) I dread getting to your body fat precisely because of the skimpy maintenance calories!

2) I undid a 2-3 lb fat loss from my PSMF in 36 hours at a wedding! HA HA

march on...
 
Okay, so the underwater dunk tank pretty much cleared up some confusion on my part. My problem was that I am not nearly as buff as I was last March. I've bulked up considerably, adding several pounds, and some inches to my arms, legs, and shoulders, and to my waist...! I couldn't figure out why I don't have a six-pack at what my body fat percentage was supposed to be.

Enter the &quot;Gold Standard&quot;, underwater body fat analysis. It makes clear that the dummy who did my last coupla skinfold readings with the calipers didn't get it right. In fact I am back into the double digit body fat percentages. That explains why I don't have visible abs...! Duh.

In a sense, I am encouraged by the results. I couldn't figure out why in the hell things didn't look right. Well, it's because they weren't right. I'm fatter than the calipers said (in fact I'm as fat as I look). Thus Lyle's diet. I'm going to try this for a week or so to see if it helps my waistline any. Perhaps it will get me back into the single digits. I can only hope.

I'm going to take Nipponbiki's advice and back off a bit on the 2g of protein per lb of LBM. I think I'll settle for 1.5g. Plus, I'll add a bit of cardio (heck, the dog is getting fat anyhow; I might as well start taking him for a walk everyday...).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top