Protein Pulse Feeding
- Thread starter SteveDFW
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Keebler Elf
New Member
Well I was hoping to find it online but no luck. I only have it in an IART magazine. I think the author (Greg Bradley-Popovich) was citing the same studies as Bryan but was going to test a different approach (several days or week of low protein followed by a few weeks of high then tapering off) I have not seen a followup article of whether it was useful. Although one guy here got good results from something similar (lo pro during the 15s/med 10s/hi 5s)
Bryan did an article a few newsletters back (either here or over at thinkmuscle) on protein myths and from that I got the impression that a steady even protein intake across the day was still the go.
update/edit: protein cycling ptI
PtII
PtIII
Bryan did an article a few newsletters back (either here or over at thinkmuscle) on protein myths and from that I got the impression that a steady even protein intake across the day was still the go.
update/edit: protein cycling ptI
PtII
PtIII
Great, thanks.
I am thinking about staying with 4-5 protein uptakes a day but may take about 100 grams within an hour after my workout. I would use a base of casein protein, some whey iso in skim milk. I will throw in some freshly ground flax seeds (omega 3s, fiber & lignans) and maybe take 5 grams of fish oil with it.
I will still do the pre-workout 25 grams of 50% Hydro/50% Whey Iso. I may drop the 20 grams of dextrose/malt since I am trying to lean out a bit.
Any thoughts would be appreciate it.
Thanks
I am thinking about staying with 4-5 protein uptakes a day but may take about 100 grams within an hour after my workout. I would use a base of casein protein, some whey iso in skim milk. I will throw in some freshly ground flax seeds (omega 3s, fiber & lignans) and maybe take 5 grams of fish oil with it.
I will still do the pre-workout 25 grams of 50% Hydro/50% Whey Iso. I may drop the 20 grams of dextrose/malt since I am trying to lean out a bit.
Any thoughts would be appreciate it.
Thanks
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Isn't that method know as protein cycling ? A period of low protein use follow by a higher daily intake of protein...It's like a longer version of pulse feeding. Here's good debate about the issue. I can't pull up the link. But go to t-mag.com and go to issue #109 #10 and #19... its called the protein conspiracy. I know its t-mag...
but lots of info on it tho.
steve let me know how it goes. Good luck.
<span =''>[b said:
Isn't that method know as protein cycling ? A period of low protein use follow by a higher daily intake of protein...It's like a longer version of pulse feeding. Here's good debate about the issue. I can't pull up the link. But go to t-mag.com and go to issue #109 #10 and #19... its called the protein conspiracy. I know its t-mag...
steve let me know how it goes. Good luck.
Keebler Elf
New Member
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Yah, I realized that as I was reading it last night. Bryan's advice would be more appealing to the BB, IMO! The protein intake remains the same over the day.
The amount would probably work out even over the course of a week if choosing a 3 day low/3 high plan as Greg seems to like. I think an important thing he said which supports Bryan's plan was that the effect starts to happen after missing only a couple of protein meals.
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Steve, I not sure if that would defeat the purpose. The idea is to make the body down regulate protein utilisation thru a period of low intake. If your other meals are normal then this effect would be lost.
Bryan?
<span =''>[b said:Quote[/b] (Proteios @ Oct. 14 2002,3:31)]Isn't that method know as protein cycling ? A period of low protein use follow by a higher daily intake of protein...It's like a longer version of pulse feeding. Here's good debate about the issue. I can't pull up the link. But go to t-mag.com and go to issue #109 #10 and #19... its called the protein conspiracy. I know its t-mag...but lots of info on it tho.
steve let me know how it goes. Good luck.
Yah, I realized that as I was reading it last night. Bryan's advice would be more appealing to the BB, IMO! The protein intake remains the same over the day.
The amount would probably work out even over the course of a week if choosing a 3 day low/3 high plan as Greg seems to like. I think an important thing he said which supports Bryan's plan was that the effect starts to happen after missing only a couple of protein meals.
</span>
<span =''>[b said:
Steve, I not sure if that would defeat the purpose. The idea is to make the body down regulate protein utilisation thru a period of low intake. If your other meals are normal then this effect would be lost.
Bryan?
This is very interesting. Here is bryan's article on it = http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/haycock/protein-pulse-feeding.htm . I might try 55-70% of my total daily protein taken post w/o, and the rest split up as normal for every other meal.
This is a very interesting idea. Protein would be more responsive for absorption/storage during the low protein periods because the carb : protein ratio would be very high for the rest of the day, causing the insulin -to- glucagon balance to favor storage. Also, the extremely high intake of protein right after a workout would drop workout-induced cortisol levels significantly, so that won't be a significant factor either through most of the day. But I'll probably stick to tradition until some other HST people try.
Here's a "thought experiment" variation. Bear with the bollocks.
Most studies that recommend something in the ballpark of 1g protein / lbs. LBM are using trainees who do very long, very intense workouts, such as college football players. Most of those studies actually recommend something in the ballpark of 0.7-0.8g protein / lbs. LBM for trainees to mantain positive nitrogen balance.
Now, if we take into account that protein synthesis drops after those first 2 hours of the workout and it's unlikel that you'll be exerting heavy physical activity for the rest of day, it's likely that 0.7g/LBM protein is more than enough to sustain or gain, provided enough calories and a relatively sedentary activity level. After all, you're probably not squating.
Say you have 200lbs guy who's 10% bodyfat. On a typical bulking diet (20% protein), he would eat at least 3200 calories.
Say he eats protein 4 times a day, 3-4 hours between. With the protein index, that amounts to 126g total. If we divide that into 4, we can say that if he takes in at least 30g of protein, it's certain that he'll ingest enough protein per feed to mantain positive balance and continue to sustain / gain muscle. Perhaps more.
Then let's say he elects to eat one lb of protein per BW a day, or 200g. The protein pulse idea would then have the trainee eat something like 160g after the workout and 13.3g per feeding before and after. If he elects to eat 800 calories per meal, than each "other" protein amounts to 6.7% of total calories. Alternatively, he could eat 130g (65%) after the workout and 30g (~15% per 800 calories) per other feeding. It's over the 10-12% recommendation, but not by much. When calories are added, it'll be right.
In summary -->
Traditional bulking diet for 200lbs 10%BF guy --> 3200 calories, 4 meals, 1g protein / BW
PP formula:
protein for postworkout meal = 80% total protein
protein for other meals = 20% total protein / (# of other meals)
PP recommendation: 160g protein for postworkout meal, 13.3g per other meal (7% of calories)
Pro: Ideal pulse characteristics conforming to study / Con: Questionable servings of protein for rest of day
Conservative PP formula:
protein for workout meal = total protein - (0.7 * LBM / (# of all meals))
protein for othermeals = 0.7 * LBM / (# of all meals)
Conservative PP recommendation: 130g protein for postworkout meal, 30g per other meal (15% of calories)
Pro: "Adequate" protein per feeding / Con: Pulse gradient not as wide
cheers,
Jules
Here's a "thought experiment" variation. Bear with the bollocks.
Most studies that recommend something in the ballpark of 1g protein / lbs. LBM are using trainees who do very long, very intense workouts, such as college football players. Most of those studies actually recommend something in the ballpark of 0.7-0.8g protein / lbs. LBM for trainees to mantain positive nitrogen balance.
Now, if we take into account that protein synthesis drops after those first 2 hours of the workout and it's unlikel that you'll be exerting heavy physical activity for the rest of day, it's likely that 0.7g/LBM protein is more than enough to sustain or gain, provided enough calories and a relatively sedentary activity level. After all, you're probably not squating.
Say you have 200lbs guy who's 10% bodyfat. On a typical bulking diet (20% protein), he would eat at least 3200 calories.
Say he eats protein 4 times a day, 3-4 hours between. With the protein index, that amounts to 126g total. If we divide that into 4, we can say that if he takes in at least 30g of protein, it's certain that he'll ingest enough protein per feed to mantain positive balance and continue to sustain / gain muscle. Perhaps more.
Then let's say he elects to eat one lb of protein per BW a day, or 200g. The protein pulse idea would then have the trainee eat something like 160g after the workout and 13.3g per feeding before and after. If he elects to eat 800 calories per meal, than each "other" protein amounts to 6.7% of total calories. Alternatively, he could eat 130g (65%) after the workout and 30g (~15% per 800 calories) per other feeding. It's over the 10-12% recommendation, but not by much. When calories are added, it'll be right.
In summary -->
Traditional bulking diet for 200lbs 10%BF guy --> 3200 calories, 4 meals, 1g protein / BW
PP formula:
protein for postworkout meal = 80% total protein
protein for other meals = 20% total protein / (# of other meals)
PP recommendation: 160g protein for postworkout meal, 13.3g per other meal (7% of calories)
Pro: Ideal pulse characteristics conforming to study / Con: Questionable servings of protein for rest of day
Conservative PP formula:
protein for workout meal = total protein - (0.7 * LBM / (# of all meals))
protein for othermeals = 0.7 * LBM / (# of all meals)
Conservative PP recommendation: 130g protein for postworkout meal, 30g per other meal (15% of calories)
Pro: "Adequate" protein per feeding / Con: Pulse gradient not as wide
cheers,
Jules
I have been considering protein pulse feeding and protein cycling myself a lot lately. I am just not so sure that it is the healthiest option. I mean, don't get me wrong, my bodybuilding goals are right up there with my desire to be all-around healthy, but the sides of this one seem like they could do some damage. If the enzymes of protein utilization down regulate, including those belonging to the urea cycle (CSP1, OTC, @$$, ASL, Arginase), and then you slam a 75g protein shake, it seems to me that there may be a huge buildup of toxic nitrogenous by products, such as ammonia. Any other thoughts?