Overtraining systemic vs. localized?

so when you find yourself at that point where you cant bicep curl anymore but you could leg curl after....that's localized overtraining? I'm wondering if it takes as long for you to recover from this as it takes you to recover from a whole body CNS stress. The specialization routines ive read ask you to hit the muscle hard till you cant curl no more[i assume this is when youve trained to your neural limit for that muscle? or is it because of lactic acid build up?] But then it ask you to hit the muscle again about 6 hours later. so i'm thinking this localized overtaxing of that specific muscles nerves doesnt last long?
 
[b said:
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so when you find yourself at that point where you cant bicep curl anymore but you could leg curl after....that's localized overtraining?
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This is it. You can try it very easily. Do like 10 sets to failure for your biceps, and try the next day, you will see that you will be weaker.


[b said:
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I'm wondering if it takes as long for you to recover from this as it takes you to recover from a whole body CNS stress.
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The body can recover quite quickly in my experience, if you are not very severily overtrained. If you train with the dual factor theory ( load/deload ), you stop when you start to feel overtrained, and you have almost recovered in about 2 days. However each individual muscle may not have fully recovered. It is just that the body has rebuilt enough to "feel better".

Usually, your body starts to overtrain when really it's too stressed all over the place. With the example of the 10 sets for the biceps, it's not going to overtrain you, but if you do that for all your muscles and say every day, your body won't be able to catch up and will overtrain. This is what you do in a dual factor system, you accumulate fatigue all over the body to force you to overtrain.

[b said:
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The specialization routines ive read ask you to hit the muscle hard till you cant curl no more[i assume this is when youve trained to your neural limit for that muscle? or is it because of lactic acid build up?
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Depends on what you want I guess. You can concentrate on a muscle if you want without going to failure. That will be better for mass because it will take less time to recover.


[b said:
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But then it ask you to hit the muscle again about 6 hours later. so i'm thinking this localized overtaxing of that specific muscles nerves doesnt last long?
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If really you stressed your nervous system a lot - many sets to failure for example- , it's unlikely that you will have recovered in just 6 hours.

However, from my experience with HST, it is possible that the genreal recommendation of 2 sets every 2 days be well under what you can really do. You have to try to figure out how much you can handle.

You can read Bryan's comment here for more info on muscle fatigue:
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin....;t=3455
 
Say for your split routine ppl. They train a muscle part once a week. Do they look to train the muscle part with a load and volume to momentary muscle fatigue or is it momentary neural fatigue for that muscle[localized neural fatigue]. Which is first in setting in?

And is CNS stress accumulated from localized neural fatigues?
Surely it is?
 
wait isn't momentary muscle fatigue a event where the muscle no loner contract? and isn't this cause by the inability of the nerves to cause the contratctions? blah..i'm still confused...my questions above^^^ still apllies tho.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (naz @ Aug. 05 2004,6:25)]Say for your split routine ppl. They train a muscle part once a week. Do they look to train the muscle part with a load and volume to momentary muscle fatigue or is it momentary neural fatigue for that muscle[localized neural fatigue]. Which is first in setting in?
And is CNS stress accumulated from localized neural fatigues?
Surely it is?
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I'm not sure I understand your question. Those why train once a week are trying to optimize hypertrophy and strength at the same time.

However the frequency they use is more determined by their nervous system recovery than by their muscles, since the muscles recover much faster.

As for your second question, when we're talking about CNS stress, we're talking in fact about localized neural fatigue. As far as I can understand at least.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (naz @ Aug. 05 2004,8:10)]wait isn't momentary muscle fatigue a event where the muscle no loner contract? and isn't this cause by the inability of the nerves to cause the contratctions? blah..i'm still confused...my questions above^^^ still apllies tho.
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From what I understand, it is the muscle fibers which fatigue. So the nervous system has to recruit more and more fibers to do the job if you will. This continues until the point where not enough fibers can be recruited to lift the load.
 
My question about the split routiners is.....They ussually lift the weights...say bicep curls to the point they cant anymore....what causes this?..localized neural fatigue? muscle fatigue? lactic acid build up?

Plus if all your muscle fibres are recuited and are unable to contract....this would mean you wont be able to lift anymore? or will you still be able to lift but not cause anymore microtrauma?

Just to clear things up...cause i'm still confused...sorry guys....if the muscles do momentarily fatigue...then theyd recover pretty quick right?...I mean theyd have to if you wanna train them again tommorrow which is what the bringing up the lagging muscle part is all about. If you werent able to train tommorrow id guess it would be bc of neural fatigue and not muscle fatigue...that right?
 
[b said:
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My question about the split routiners is.....They ussually lift the weights...say bicep curls to the point they cant anymore....what causes this?..localized neural fatigue? muscle fatigue? lactic acid build up?
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I don't see why you say that those who do splits go to failure. Most of them don't.

As for what causes muscle failure, from what I understand it is the lack of ATP. Fibers fatigue because of that, more and more fibers have to be recruited until not enough strength can be generated to lift the heavy @$$ weight, as would say Ronnie.. ahah

[b said:
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Plus if all your muscle fibres are recuited and are unable to contract....this would mean you wont be able to lift anymore? or will you still be able to lift but not cause anymore microtrauma?
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It means that you get to failure. Not enough fibers are recruited. It's not "lightweight baby" anymore..

As for what happens at the end of a set regarding microtrauma, I don't really know. It's not sure that going to failure helps to make microtrauma, since more fibers tend to be recruited - which reduced the tension per fiber -.
 
sorry HDD forget bout the split routine example...i was actually after what caused the inability to lift anymore reps....muscle failure is it? how long does this last?...ball park figure..
 
I was under the impression that you wouldn't be able to do more reps in between sets because of ATP depletion but that recovers for the next set. The thing that causes you to unable to lift at the end of 10 sets for a bodypart is localized neural fatigue. And that CNS stress is an accumulation of the localized neural fatigues. And the thing that enable you to workout a bodypart everyday to bring the lagging one up is that you don't train any other bodypart hence tho you go to localized neural fatigue for that bodypart...you are able to train it tommorrow as CNS stress is still low because you only trained one bodypart and because of that it will recover quicker because the CNS doesn't have to divide it;s recovering abilities to other bodyparts so you are able to train that muscle again tomorrow.
 
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