new t-mag article on creatine

[imported_flow]

Hi all,

there's a new article on t-mag about creatine supplementation. They say that during maintenance, a daily intake of 5 grams may be excessive for the average trainee, leading to transporter downregulation. They also claim that sodium assumes a more important role than insulin as transporter substance and recommend to put some salt in one's post-WO shake.

Any Comments?

 

[Bryan Haycock]

1) It is the amount of creatine inside the muscle cell that causes transporter downregulation. So, once the cell is "loaded" it doesn't matter how much you take each day, downregulation is going to happen as long as the cell stays full of creatine.

2) Sodium is an important cotransported substance for creatine. However, it isn't necessary to drink salt in your drink. Most drinks already have a given amount of sodium in them. On the other hand, it doesn't hurt to eat something with salt in it either.

 

[Cylus]

Quote[/b] (flow @ Jan. 12 2004,7:11)]...and recommend to put some salt in one's post-WO shake.

Sometimes I think that those t-mag folks hurt their heads when they attempt to formulate original thoughts...

Edit: point being, most people get plenty of sodium in their diet, including the post-w/o shake, without adding additional salt for the sake of the transport of glucose and other molecules.

 

[Jon Stark]

To their credit, at least it wasn't one of those "articles" that bashed "typical" creatine and then ended with a teaser about a soon-to-be-released new super creatine from Biotest.

 

[imported_flow]

Thanks for all the replies.

Contrary to some former advice from other forum members, I will continue my usual maintenance scheme by taking 5g creatine only on workout days (i.e. every other day), because my LBM is a mere 165 lbs. Transporter downregulation might still happen according to Bryan's reply, but at least this dosage scheme is more economical and I can save some creatine for short loading bursts every 2-3 months.

I won't put any salt in my post-WO shake. As far as I know, our normal diet contains far too much salt anyway.

As to the quality of the article, I found it above average. Of course, I'm not able to judge the scientific quality of the references, but the author managed to explain the key points in a simple way and also added some reasoning which can be understood by laypersons such as myself. Also, the article was not designed to push a new supplement (unless they're planning to launch an ingenious creatine/sodium mix for optimal transportation). You're right, there are many articles on t-mag which are either just fillers or product placement, but every other week or so they do manage to come up with something worth reading.

 

[Baoh]

Quote[/b] (flow @ Jan. 13 2004,8:34)]Thanks for all the replies.
Contrary to some former advice from other forum members, I will continue my usual maintenance scheme by taking 5g creatine only on workout days (i.e. every other day), because my LBM is a mere 165 lbs. Transporter downregulation might still happen according to Bryan's reply, but at least this dosage scheme is more economical and I can save some creatine for short loading bursts every 2-3 months.
I won't put any salt in my post-WO shake. As far as I know, our normal diet contains far too much salt anyway.
As to the quality of the article, I found it above average. Of course, I'm not able to judge the scientific quality of the references, but the author managed to explain the key points in a simple way and also added some reasoning which can be understood by laypersons such as myself. Also, the article was not designed to push a new supplement (unless they're planning to launch an ingenious creatine/sodium mix for optimal transportation). You're right, there are many articles on t-mag which are either just fillers or product placement, but every other week or so they do manage to come up with something worth reading.

I don't know if I didn't read this properly, but did you get what Bryan said? He said the transporter downregulates if the cell is full. Therefore, it's really not even an issue for consideration when using creatine- in the sense that you should not care about avoiding transporter downregulation.

Anyway, creatine is sooooooooooooooooooo inexpensive. Taking 5 grams a day won't hurt you, and will make sure you're getting enough.

Majoring in minutia, me thinks.

 

[Baoh]

For what it's worth, I take my creatine with some soda. Sugar, salt, and carbonation. Maybe it helps, and maybe it doesn't, but it *seems* to work well like this.

 

[imported_flow]

Thanks for trying to clarify, Baoh. I have understood the impact of Bryan's answer. Still: when I do the math, 2-3 g per day is quite sufficient for my bodyweight, and taking more is just a waste. Also, I have experimented with different daily intakes and I haven't felt any diminishing effects with the lower dose.

Another thing: the FAQ say that it's not clear yet whether creatine cycling and loading are really necessary. Bryan says that transporter downregulation does happen, which seems to validate the above practices??

 

[Baoh]

Quote[/b] (flow @ Jan. 14 2004,8:08)]Another thing: the FAQ say that it's not clear yet whether creatine cycling and loading are really necessary. Bryan says that transporter downregulation does happen, which seems to validate the above practices??

We seem to be running in circles.

The transporter downregulation occurs when the cell's creatine phosphate content is maximal.

Transporter downregulation is not even an issue:

When the cell is full, and the transporter mechanism in that cell is downregulated, then it doesn't really matter, as the cell couldn't get anymore creatine in it anyway.

When the creatine content of the cell drops, then the transporter mechanism will automatically upregulate so as to be able to store more of this phosphate-donating molecule.



It is for this reason that transporter downregulation is not an issue and is extraneous information that is of no consequence that is being incorporated into this conversation. There's no point in mentioning it. That's what I am saying.


Anyhow, I see your point regarding taking less since you have a lower bodyweight (not because of avoidance of transporter downregulation, since it is NOT something to care about), but I just advocate a "cover your bases" regimen.

There's nothing wrong with your plan, IMO. One of your reasons is right on, and the other is baseless. The result will be the same, of course, regardless of intention, and will work out in your favor.

 

[imported_flow]

Baoh, now I see the light! Thanks for your patience

I'm a thrifty guy in general, and I just can't overcome my nature when it comes to supplements. But at least I don't have to fret about using up all the creatine saved during maintenance for occasional re-loading any more

 

[Ruhl]

I thought creatine was best taken before and not after training.

If creatine is taken pre-wrokout, which is more important: taking the salt with the creatine pre-workout or taking the salt with the carbs post-workout?

 

[Cylus]

The creatine transporter is what you'd call a symporter; aka, it'll use a pre-allocated concentration gradient to transport sodium ions and creatine in one direction over a membrane into the cells. That sodium is then shunted back out of the cells via a sodium/potassium pump that re-establishes the original concentration gradient.

Knowing/reading that information allowed that author at t-mag to come up with the "brilliant" idear that you'd be able to enhance creatine uptake by ingesting salt with creatine. Unfortunately, the man is ignorant of the fact it'd take a major deprival of sodium to upset the sodium balance within a system. The sodium/potassium pump drives multiple systems, such as the simple firing of neurons and uptake of glucose within the gut. Point being, it is one of key regulated processes that our body uses to keep homeostatis. I couldn't decide whether to be appalled by that man's recommendation or die laughing.

Most people take for granted how much sodium they ingest which really makes him recommending salt with your creatine absolutely rediculous, in my opinion (which may not come off as so humble, heh). Honestly, when was the last time you've ever heard of someone suffering from a problem caused by a lack of sodium or salt? I'd really be interested in hearing such a case. Forgive if I come off as harsh but, while those guys mean well, they tend to piss me off when they get too big for their britches.