Is this new?

Q

quadancer

New Member
My idea begins very simply, so I fear this has surely been done somewhere, somewhen.
Considering all principles of growth and the problems of overworking things, most of us have done alternates. Wont go into why and how here. The problem I've noticed with 1/1 alternates is this:
You will probably progress more in one than the other due to it's nature.
You will probably progress more in one than the other due to YOUR nature, or condition of prior training.
You will probably prefer the results of one or the other, or more decidedly, the effectiveness of one or the other.
I've come up with the idea that by simply using a preferential ratio of frequency , you would put 2/3 of the work on the preferred exersize, using a 2/1 setup. It goes like this:
I alternate deads and squats. Both are equally important to me, but I feel that squats give the most bang for the buck and deads are just another leg exersize, less effective for growth. So, instead, I do TWO sessions of squats (one rep range then a lesser) and use the NEXT session for deads, giving the body a break from the squats while maintaining strengths. The squats benefit in two ways from the deads (strength and "rest") and the deads benefit from the squats for strength. But I spend another 1/3 of my training time using the more effective exersize.
That's really just it. No sense in elaborating endlessly. It would be the same for all other things we alternate.
Jump on in here guys. Tell me Imma Foo'.
 
I think its a fine idea. Many 5x5 templates do the same thing:

<u>Monday
</u>Squat
Bench
Row

Wednesday
Deadlift
Press
Chins

Friday
Squat
Bench
Row

So you end up doing one set of exercises 2x/week, and the other set of exercises 1x/week.
 
Ha! What a coincidence; change the press to dips and you have my new personal routine! I sort of thought I'd seen this before, but couldn't place where. It's just that I was getting my head wrapped around the reasoning behind it as I sat glassy-eyed staring at the floor of my squatrack.
At least I didn't write a book and try to sell it on the net, huh?
 
What Sci said, most 5x5 programs look like this. Plus, I'm sure many people here do something similar, squats/deads/squats every week being the most common example.

I'd say give it a go and then come back and tell us if you prefer it or not.
 
I like the idea of an A-B-A routine, especially this one. Very simplify and win style.

But why do deads get the back seat? It works most of the body, although not full range as squats do for legs. Is it too taxing at the weights you're using?
rock.gif
 
<div>
(nkl @ May 13 2008,9:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I like the idea of an A-B-A routine, especially this one. Very simplify and win style.

But why do deads get the back seat? It works most of the body, although not full range as squats do for legs. Is it too taxing at the weights you're using?  
rock.gif
</div>
Deads are very hard on my lower back and my CNS. Even if the volume isn't that high I take about two weeks to get over a deadlift session esp. as I'm still squatting twice a week. I could do them every week (or even twice a week) but the rest of my life would be made pretty unpleasant. Squats (being a lighter exercise) seem to be far less taxing on my lower back and CNS.
 
<div>
(Lol @ May 13 2008,5:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(nkl @ May 13 2008,9:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I like the idea of an A-B-A routine, especially this one. Very simplify and win style.

But why do deads get the back seat? It works most of the body, although not full range as squats do for legs. Is it too taxing at the weights you're using?
rock.gif
</div>
Deads are very hard on my lower back and my CNS. Even if the volume isn't that high I take about two weeks to get over a deadlift session esp. as I'm still squatting twice a week. I could do them every week (or even twice a week) but the rest of my life would be made pretty unpleasant. Squats (being a lighter exercise) seem to be far less taxing on my lower back and CNS.</div>
Wow, and this is coming from one of our PR kings!
 
<div>
(quadancer @ May 12 2008,8:35)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I alternate deads and squats. Both are equally important to me, but I feel that squats give the most bang for the buck and deads are just another leg exersize, less effective for growth.
...
Tell me Imma Foo'.</div>
I alternate deads and squats. Both are equally important to me, but I feel that deads give the most bang for the buck and squats are just another leg exersize, less effective for growth...

Given my druthers, I take deads over squats everytime.

BTW, you a foo'....  
wink.gif
 
I used to alternate squats and deads ABA BAB, but now and realizing why people jsut do deads once a week or every two weeks. My lower back is fine (unless I am doing rows the same day) but it jsut guts my CNS. I love deads, but I just cant handle them as much anymore. Deads seem to work by sheer loading while squats give maximum range of motion and stretch with a significant weight. However the deadlift works more muscles. If I could only do one it would be deadlifts.

I am doing Bill Starr's 5x5 right now and it doesnt have any deads...
sad.gif
I miss them... but on the other hand high pulls are quite fun!
biggrin.gif
 
Well guys, remember that the principle here is not deads vs squats, but volume balancing alternating exersizes for a same muscle or group.
For me, Deads are Sumo, and hit the lower back harder than squats, using less legs. So that's my reasoning for my choice.
We could as easily be talking about balancing Pendlay's with T-bar Rows or pullups.
 
<div>
(bgates1654 @ May 13 2008,11:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am doing Bill Starr's 5x5 right now and it doesnt have any deads...
sad.gif
I miss them... but on the other hand high pulls are quite fun!  
biggrin.gif
</div>
can you link me to this routine?
 
<div>
(fearfactory @ May 13 2008,7:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">can you link me to this routine?</div>
Bill Starr's 5x5
I think Bill originally had his football players doing Power Cleans instead of the barbell rows and dead lifts though.
 
<div>
(fearfactory @ May 13 2008,7:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(bgates1654 @ May 13 2008,11:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am doing Bill Starr's 5x5 right now and it doesnt have any deads...
sad.gif
I miss them... but on the other hand high pulls are quite fun!
biggrin.gif
</div>
can you link me to this routine?</div>
That version of the routine looked more like this:

Monday – Heavy Day
Squat – 5 sets of 5
Bench – 5 sets of 5
Powercleans – 5 sets of 5
2 sets of weighted hypers
4 sets of weighted Sit-ups

Wednesday – Light Day
Squat – 4 sets of 5
Incline Bench – 4 sets of 5
High Pulls – 4 sets of 5
Sit-ups – 3 sets

Friday - Medium
Squat – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, back-off
Bench – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, back-off
Powercleans – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple
Weighted Dips – 3 sets of 5-8
Triceps and Biceps – 3 sets of 8 each
 
Except for the continuous squat work, it has the same principle I've put up here. The 5x5 I did wasn't with cleans and some of that setup. And I wouldn't do a situp if someone paid me.
 
<div>
(quadancer @ May 14 2008,3:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">... And I wouldn't do a situp if someone paid me.</div>How do you get out of bed then? Roll out of bed? (just jokin')  
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The only thing I do not like about this idea of training is the reduced frequency per muscle group. I still prefer a 3-4x/week frequency.
 
&quot;That version of the routine looked more like this&quot;

Actually I think the incline bench press was just the press. Also power cleans on the 3rd workout also had a backoff.

&quot;Except for the continuous squat work&quot;
The second workout is a light squat day. It basically maxes out at the 3rd ramping set of the 5 sets on the first workout and does that weight for the last 3 sets. You could conceivably replace it with front squats and still be okay.
 
<div>
(bgates1654 @ May 14 2008,11:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">&quot;That version of the routine looked more like this&quot;

Actually I think the incline bench press was just the press. Also power cleans on the 3rd workout also had a backoff.

&quot;Except for the continuous squat work&quot;
The second workout is a light squat day. It basically maxes out at the 3rd ramping set of the 5 sets on the first workout and does that weight for the last 3 sets. You could conceivably replace it with front squats and still be okay.</div>
Yeah I think some routines didn't even have any benching at all, favoring overhead pressing instead, but I haven't delved too deeply into that lately.
I think it would be a nice routine for a change. I did stuff like that before. It's strange not doing rows or deadlifts, and if you eliminate bench, it's weird not having that in there too, since they all are pretty much staples of a typical bodybuilding program, but it can be fun for a change. I really liked high pulls back when I was doing them.
 
<div>
(bgates1654 @ May 14 2008,10:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You could conceivably replace it with front squats and still be okay.</div>
I agree (though a person doing cleans would also get front squats twice weekly).


Quad,
I really like your routine. What's your current philosophy on rep scheme? I see your load progression is going thru the roof.

bgates,
I'm still interested in the 5x5 flavor you'd mentioned. specifically, I'd like to read the rationale behind exclusion of deads in favor of highpulls.
 
This is pretty much it:
http://www.geocities.com/elitema....?200817

I modified mine somewhat:
-I switched bench and press.
-I replaced bench with weighted dips after the switch.
-I replaced the auxiliaries with:
=1st WO: Rows and weighted crunches 3x5 ramping
=2nd WO: Pullups and weighted hypers 3x5 ramping
=3rd WO: Curls and Rotator Cuff 3x5 ramping

The cleans are power cleans. Its not much more than a partial squat unless you use too much weight.

I have read about the exclusion of deadlifts, but I cannot find it again. I think it had something to do with carryover and how he felt that high pulls put athletes at less risk than high pulls/power cleans. Either way the first part of a power clean is a quick powerful moderate weight deadlift. The high pull is even heavier. At the very least I would posit that your deadlift strength wouldnt drop.

The reason I like high pulls is due to the fact that they make heavy power cleans seem lighter and give me more confidence in racking it.
 
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