Intake of creatine
- Thread starter bodyguard
- Start date
I
imported_flow
Guest
Hi bodyguard, your question holds a lot of interest for me, too. I just started taking creatine and with my BW (around 80 kgs), 0.03g/kg and day would mean ca. 2.5g/day. 5g/day would be way too high for me. For reasons of convenience, I have decided to take 5g EOD with my pre-workout shake.
For loading, I just took 20g/day for three days. In one of the former ghost dog columns on t-mag (issue 267, I think) they said that the generally recommended dosages are too high and most of it will leave the body without being used. Unfortunately, they didn't give precise new recommendations and also no clear references. As the effectiveness of loading is heavily debated, it shouldn't matter much anyway.
I already studied the FAQ religiously on that topic; does anyone know other websites which provide reliable information on creatine dosage?
For loading, I just took 20g/day for three days. In one of the former ghost dog columns on t-mag (issue 267, I think) they said that the generally recommended dosages are too high and most of it will leave the body without being used. Unfortunately, they didn't give precise new recommendations and also no clear references. As the effectiveness of loading is heavily debated, it shouldn't matter much anyway.
I already studied the FAQ religiously on that topic; does anyone know other websites which provide reliable information on creatine dosage?
bodyguard
New Member
There are a lot of confusions about the intake. What I also read from the internet that the owners recommend loading because its there own profit. There are also some differences with intake as well, only on training days or every day. Because it works directly and when we are not training what does it do than?
D
Dianabol
Guest
5 grams a day is fine.
Taken on workout days and non-workout days.
On workout days, take with protein drink prior to working out. The increased perfusion during the workout is supposed to lead to a greater uptake of creatine.
On non-workout days, take on empty stomach or with a meal that is high in carbs and low in fibre.
There is no need for loading. 5 gm a day will eventually lead to full stores anyhow. If cost is an issue, take 5 gm on training days and 2.5gm (roughly half a flat teaspoon) on non-training days.
Creatine does much more than just hydrate muscle. It promotes fusion of satellite cells thereby allowing greater hypertrophy of multi-nucleated muscle cells. Some studies have also shown improvement in heart function and even, brain function from creatine intake. Type "creatine" in PubMed Search and see
Godspeed, and happy HSTing.
Taken on workout days and non-workout days.
On workout days, take with protein drink prior to working out. The increased perfusion during the workout is supposed to lead to a greater uptake of creatine.
On non-workout days, take on empty stomach or with a meal that is high in carbs and low in fibre.
There is no need for loading. 5 gm a day will eventually lead to full stores anyhow. If cost is an issue, take 5 gm on training days and 2.5gm (roughly half a flat teaspoon) on non-training days.
Creatine does much more than just hydrate muscle. It promotes fusion of satellite cells thereby allowing greater hypertrophy of multi-nucleated muscle cells. Some studies have also shown improvement in heart function and even, brain function from creatine intake. Type "creatine" in PubMed Search and see
Godspeed, and happy HSTing.
I
imported_flow
Guest
Dianabol, why do you recommend taking more than the standard 0.03g/kg and day?
Until a person's creatine stores are full, taking more than the standard dosage could be considered "loading", although following your suggestions, this would take weeks instead of days (not necessarily bad).
But once stores are full, it has been shown that they deplete very slowly, i.e. by less than 0.03g/kg and day.
So, if you continue taking higher dosages, doesn't this just mean that your kidneys will remove the superfluous creatine without storing/using it?
I assume you don't trust the 0.03g/kg, and want to be absolutely sure that creatine stores aren't starting to deplete again. Is there any evidence that the above mentioned rate of creatine depletion is too low?
Until a person's creatine stores are full, taking more than the standard dosage could be considered "loading", although following your suggestions, this would take weeks instead of days (not necessarily bad).
But once stores are full, it has been shown that they deplete very slowly, i.e. by less than 0.03g/kg and day.
So, if you continue taking higher dosages, doesn't this just mean that your kidneys will remove the superfluous creatine without storing/using it?
I assume you don't trust the 0.03g/kg, and want to be absolutely sure that creatine stores aren't starting to deplete again. Is there any evidence that the above mentioned rate of creatine depletion is too low?
D
Dianabol
Guest
Dear flow,
As Aaron_F had said, it is easier to stick with the 5gm flat teaspoon once a day then trying to be precise with the 0.03g/kg approach.
Perhaps, one can stick with half a flat teaspoon a day (~2.5gm creatine) until they are nearer the 166kg weight.
But not all creatine is absorbed though, regardless of dosage. I cannot remember what percentage gets absorbed, but this means that if you need 3gm creatine a day, you might have to take 5gm in order for 3gm to reach your muscles. If one were to use a micronized creatine monohydrate, then better absorption can be expected.
Even so, I do not recommend more than a flat teaspoon a day. 5gm a day would do fine for most of us.
Replying your post in specific:
1. Dianabol, why do you recommend taking more than the standard 0.03g/kg and day?
>>>>> For reasons of convenience, ease of measurement really, variable absorption, as mentioned above
2. Until a person's creatine stores are full, taking more than the standard dosage could be considered "loading", although following your suggestions, this would take weeks instead of days (not necessarily bad).
>>>>>> We must consider how creatine is transported. From memory, I think creatine is co-transported with sodium, and these transporters can get saturated. So the loading of 20gm a day is really, pure baloney, especially if 5gm is enough to saturate or near saturate these transporters. Thinking about it, if one were to take 5gm a day, it would be good to do so by taking 2.5gm twice - once before working out and once after working out.
3. But once stores are full, it has been shown that they deplete very slowly, i.e. by less than 0.03g/kg and day.
>>>>> Yup, that's true.
4. So, if you continue taking higher dosages, doesn't this just mean that your kidneys will remove the superfluous creatine without storing/using it?
>>>>> Yup, this is likely to happen once your stores are full. But the problem is, how do we know the extent of fullness? Thus, taking 5gm a day on training days and 2.5gm a day on non-training days is a good idea. We want substrate availability to be at its maximum, at all times if possible, to facilitate hypertrophy.
5. I assume you don't trust the 0.03g/kg, and want to be absolutely sure that creatine stores aren't starting to deplete again. Is there any evidence that the above mentioned rate of creatine depletion is too low?
>>>>>>I am not sure as to how accurate that rate of depletion is. Furthermore, what if, on non-training days, a person still engages in other activity? Would they not risk tapping into their creatine stores too? Not many of us are totally sedentary on off days because we have to work, attend classes etc and by this token, the rate of depletion could be less than accurate. In a way, I do not trust this 0.03gm/kg recommendation. It is a recommendation based on a person's LBM? Determining one's exact LBM really is a fair bit of guess work unless we had access to expensive tests - hydrostatic weighing, DEXA etc. Because such guesstimates are involved, I would prefer to err on the safe side of things and instead of taking too little creatine, I'd prefer to take a little more.
Note that I am not advocating taking 20gm a day - just 5gm on training days and 2.5gm on non-training days. One can even try 2.5gm on training days just before training, and 2.5gm on non-training days, then up it to 5gm on training days just to see if weight gain is more dramatic. This is where a diet/training log will be very useful.
We must not forget that if our diets are high in meat, especially beef, we would also be getting some creatine from them so perhaps, even 2.5gm on training days and off days isn't a bad idea.
Godspeed, and happy HSTing
As Aaron_F had said, it is easier to stick with the 5gm flat teaspoon once a day then trying to be precise with the 0.03g/kg approach.
Perhaps, one can stick with half a flat teaspoon a day (~2.5gm creatine) until they are nearer the 166kg weight.
But not all creatine is absorbed though, regardless of dosage. I cannot remember what percentage gets absorbed, but this means that if you need 3gm creatine a day, you might have to take 5gm in order for 3gm to reach your muscles. If one were to use a micronized creatine monohydrate, then better absorption can be expected.
Even so, I do not recommend more than a flat teaspoon a day. 5gm a day would do fine for most of us.
Replying your post in specific:
1. Dianabol, why do you recommend taking more than the standard 0.03g/kg and day?
>>>>> For reasons of convenience, ease of measurement really, variable absorption, as mentioned above
2. Until a person's creatine stores are full, taking more than the standard dosage could be considered "loading", although following your suggestions, this would take weeks instead of days (not necessarily bad).
>>>>>> We must consider how creatine is transported. From memory, I think creatine is co-transported with sodium, and these transporters can get saturated. So the loading of 20gm a day is really, pure baloney, especially if 5gm is enough to saturate or near saturate these transporters. Thinking about it, if one were to take 5gm a day, it would be good to do so by taking 2.5gm twice - once before working out and once after working out.
3. But once stores are full, it has been shown that they deplete very slowly, i.e. by less than 0.03g/kg and day.
>>>>> Yup, that's true.
4. So, if you continue taking higher dosages, doesn't this just mean that your kidneys will remove the superfluous creatine without storing/using it?
>>>>> Yup, this is likely to happen once your stores are full. But the problem is, how do we know the extent of fullness? Thus, taking 5gm a day on training days and 2.5gm a day on non-training days is a good idea. We want substrate availability to be at its maximum, at all times if possible, to facilitate hypertrophy.
5. I assume you don't trust the 0.03g/kg, and want to be absolutely sure that creatine stores aren't starting to deplete again. Is there any evidence that the above mentioned rate of creatine depletion is too low?
>>>>>>I am not sure as to how accurate that rate of depletion is. Furthermore, what if, on non-training days, a person still engages in other activity? Would they not risk tapping into their creatine stores too? Not many of us are totally sedentary on off days because we have to work, attend classes etc and by this token, the rate of depletion could be less than accurate. In a way, I do not trust this 0.03gm/kg recommendation. It is a recommendation based on a person's LBM? Determining one's exact LBM really is a fair bit of guess work unless we had access to expensive tests - hydrostatic weighing, DEXA etc. Because such guesstimates are involved, I would prefer to err on the safe side of things and instead of taking too little creatine, I'd prefer to take a little more.
Note that I am not advocating taking 20gm a day - just 5gm on training days and 2.5gm on non-training days. One can even try 2.5gm on training days just before training, and 2.5gm on non-training days, then up it to 5gm on training days just to see if weight gain is more dramatic. This is where a diet/training log will be very useful.
We must not forget that if our diets are high in meat, especially beef, we would also be getting some creatine from them so perhaps, even 2.5gm on training days and off days isn't a bad idea.
Godspeed, and happy HSTing
though some would argue that loading is not necessary, and even some use this as a selling point for their creatine, loading is pretty much essential. If you think that loading is just a money thing, think about this. If you don't load, and it takes 2-3 weeks to get loaded this way, are you really saving money? With the loading scheme, you are loaded in 5 days and done. This is a proven to work method, and is best, why mess with what we know works? Yes, much is wasted, but this is precisely the reason loading is needed, to completely saturate the muscle with ATP.
Any micronized creatine is best, it does not sit in your stomach as bad. Any brand with the Creapure logo on it is good.
Take your creatine on days off also. First thing in the morning may be best, (especially if you are using a sugar carrier type, due to insulin sensitivity in the morning), but it really doesn't matter. I would just use water.
On training days, I find that a 5 gr. dose pre training and 5 gr. after training works well. Mix both with protein if you like. One caveat here, do not pre mix your creatine in a fluid and let it sit. Wait till you are ready to consume it. Creatine turns to a waste product, creatinine in a short period of time in a fluid, is not stable.
Good luck to all, and hope this helps.
Any micronized creatine is best, it does not sit in your stomach as bad. Any brand with the Creapure logo on it is good.
Take your creatine on days off also. First thing in the morning may be best, (especially if you are using a sugar carrier type, due to insulin sensitivity in the morning), but it really doesn't matter. I would just use water.
On training days, I find that a 5 gr. dose pre training and 5 gr. after training works well. Mix both with protein if you like. One caveat here, do not pre mix your creatine in a fluid and let it sit. Wait till you are ready to consume it. Creatine turns to a waste product, creatinine in a short period of time in a fluid, is not stable.
Good luck to all, and hope this helps.
I
imported_flow
Guest
Dianabol, I really appreciate your time and effort to answer my question!
If the transport mechanisms of the human body do not allow more than 5g/day to be delivered to the muscles, loading is indeed worthless! However, rb1fit clearly disagrees here, and the FAQ merely state that the effectiveness of loading hasn't been shown. Are there any new scientific findings which could settle this issue? Rb1fit, as you are "pro-loading", could you give some more detailed reasons for your POV?
If the transport mechanisms of the human body do not allow more than 5g/day to be delivered to the muscles, loading is indeed worthless! However, rb1fit clearly disagrees here, and the FAQ merely state that the effectiveness of loading hasn't been shown. Are there any new scientific findings which could settle this issue? Rb1fit, as you are "pro-loading", could you give some more detailed reasons for your POV?
Here is a simple one, can supply lots more.[b said:Quote[/b] (flow @ Aug. 31 2003,12:24)]Dianabol, I really appreciate your time and effort to answer my question!
If the transport mechanisms of the human body do not allow more than 5g/day to be delivered to the muscles, loading is indeed worthless! However, rb1fit clearly disagrees here, and the FAQ merely state that the effectiveness of loading hasn't been shown. Are there any new scientific findings which could settle this issue? Rb1fit, as you are "pro-loading", could you give some more detailed reasons for your POV?
Effect of Creatine Loading on
Neuromuscular Fatigue Threshold.
J. Appl. Physiol. 88: 109–112, 2000
Stout, Jeffrey, Joan Eckerson, Kyle Ebersole, Geri
Moore, Sharon Perry, Terry Housh, Anthony Bull, Joel
Cramer, and Ash Batheja.
The purpose of this investigation was to deter-minethe effect of creatine (Cr) loading on the onset of neuromuscular fatigue by monitoring electromyographic fa-tigue curves from the vastus lateralis muscle using the physical working capacity at the fatigue threshold (PWCFT) test. Using a double-blind random design, 15 women athletes [mean age 19.0 6 2.0 (SD) yr] from the university crew team received a placebo (n 5 8; 20 g glucose) or Cr (n 5 7;5 g Cr monohydrate 1 20 g glucose) four times per day for 5 consecutive days. Analysis of covariance was used to analyze the data (covaried for presupplementation PWCFT values). The adjusted mean postsupplementation PWCFT value for the Cr group (mean 5 186 W) was significantly (P , 0.05) higher than that of the placebo group (mean 5 155 W). These findings suggest that Cr loading may delay the onset of neuromuscular fatigue.
Clin Sci (Lond). 2003 Feb;104(2):153-62. Related Articles, Links
Effects of creatine loading and prolonged creatine supplementation on body composition, fuel selection, sprint and endurance performance in humans.
van Loon LJ, Oosterlaar AM, Hartgens F, Hesselink MK, Snow RJ, Wagenmakers AJ.
Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht (NUTRIM), Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands. L.vanLoon@HB.Unimaas.nl
Most research on creatine has focused on short-term creatine loading and its effect on high-intensity performance capacity. Some studies have investigated the effect of prolonged creatine use during strength training. However, studies on the effects of prolonged creatine supplementation are lacking. In the present study, we have assessed the effects of both creatine loading and prolonged supplementation on muscle creatine content, body composition, muscle and whole-body oxidative capacity, substrate utilization during submaximal exercise, and on repeated supramaximal sprint, as well as endurance-type time-trial performance on a cycle ergometer. Twenty subjects ingested creatine or a placebo during a 5-day loading period (20 g.day(-1)) after which supplementation was continued for up to 6 weeks (2 g.day(-1)). Creatine loading increased muscle free creatine, creatine phosphate (CrP) and total creatine content ( P <0.05). The subsequent use of a 2 g.day(-1) maintenance dose, as suggested by an American College of Sports Medicine Roundtable, resulted in a decline in both the elevated CrP and total creatine content and maintenance of the free creatine concentration. Both short- and long-term creatine supplementation improved performance during repeated supramaximal sprints on a cycle ergometer. However, whole-body and muscle oxidative capacity, substrate utilization and time-trial performance were not affected. The increase in body mass following creatine loading was maintained after 6 weeks of continued supplementation and accounted for by a corresponding increase in fat-free mass. This study provides definite evidence that prolonged creatine supplementation in humans does not increase muscle or whole-body oxidative capacity and, as such, does not influence substrate utilization or performance during endurance cycling exercise. In addition, our findings suggest that prolonged creatine ingestion induces an increase in fat-free mass.
Creatine supplementation: a comparison of loading and maintenance protocols on creatine uptake by human skeletal muscle.
Preen D, Dawson B, Goodman C, Beilby J, Ching S.
Department of Human Movement and Exercise Science at The University of Western Australia, Crawley, W.A., Australia, 6009.
The purposes of this investigation were first to determine the impact of 3 different creatine (Cr) loading procedures on skeletal muscle total Cr (TCr) accumulation and, second, to evaluate the effectiveness of 2 maintenance regimes on retaining intramuscular TCr stores, in the 6 weeks following a 5-day Cr loading program (20 g x day(-1). Eighteen physically active male subjects were divided into 3 equal groups and administered either: (a) Cr (4 x 5 g x day(-1) x 5 days), (b) Glucose+Cr (1 g x (-1) of body mass twice per day), or © Cr in conjunction with 60 min of daily muscular (repeated-sprint) exercise. Following the 5-day loading period, subjects were reassigned to 3 maintenance groups and ingested either 0 g x day(-1), 2 g. day(-1) or 5 g x day(-1) of Cr for a period of 6 weeks. Muscle biopsy samples (vastus lateralis) were taken pre- and post-loading as well as post-maintenance and analyzed for skeletal muscle ATP, phosphocreatine (PCr), Cr, and TCr concentrations. Twenty-four hour urine samples were collected for each of the loading days and last 2 maintenance days, and used to determine whole body Cr retention. Post-loading TCr stores were significantly (p <.05) increased in all treatment conditions. The Glucose+Cr condition produced a greater elevation (p <.05) in TCr concentrations (25%) than the Cr Only (16%) or Exercise+Cr (18%) groups. Following the maintenance period, muscle TCr stores were still similar to post-loading values for both the 2 g x day(-1) and 5 g x day(-1) conditions. Intramuscular TCr values for the 0 g x day(-1) condition were significantly lower than the other conditions after the 6-week period. Although not significantly different from pre-loading concentrations, muscle TCr for the 0 g x day(-1) group had not fully returned to baseline levels at 6 weeks post-loading. The data suggests that Glucose+Cr (but with a much smaller glucose intake than currently accepted) is potentially the most effective means of elevating TCr accumulation in human skeletal muscle. Furthermore, after 5 days of Cr loading, elevated muscle TCr concentrations can be maintained by the ingestion of small daily Cr doses (2-5 g) for a period of 6 weeks and that TCr concentrations may take longer than currently accepted to return to baseline values after such a Cr loading regime.
Effects of creatine loading and prolonged creatine supplementation on body composition, fuel selection, sprint and endurance performance in humans.
van Loon LJ, Oosterlaar AM, Hartgens F, Hesselink MK, Snow RJ, Wagenmakers AJ.
Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht (NUTRIM), Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands. L.vanLoon@HB.Unimaas.nl
Most research on creatine has focused on short-term creatine loading and its effect on high-intensity performance capacity. Some studies have investigated the effect of prolonged creatine use during strength training. However, studies on the effects of prolonged creatine supplementation are lacking. In the present study, we have assessed the effects of both creatine loading and prolonged supplementation on muscle creatine content, body composition, muscle and whole-body oxidative capacity, substrate utilization during submaximal exercise, and on repeated supramaximal sprint, as well as endurance-type time-trial performance on a cycle ergometer. Twenty subjects ingested creatine or a placebo during a 5-day loading period (20 g.day(-1)) after which supplementation was continued for up to 6 weeks (2 g.day(-1)). Creatine loading increased muscle free creatine, creatine phosphate (CrP) and total creatine content ( P <0.05). The subsequent use of a 2 g.day(-1) maintenance dose, as suggested by an American College of Sports Medicine Roundtable, resulted in a decline in both the elevated CrP and total creatine content and maintenance of the free creatine concentration. Both short- and long-term creatine supplementation improved performance during repeated supramaximal sprints on a cycle ergometer. However, whole-body and muscle oxidative capacity, substrate utilization and time-trial performance were not affected. The increase in body mass following creatine loading was maintained after 6 weeks of continued supplementation and accounted for by a corresponding increase in fat-free mass. This study provides definite evidence that prolonged creatine supplementation in humans does not increase muscle or whole-body oxidative capacity and, as such, does not influence substrate utilization or performance during endurance cycling exercise. In addition, our findings suggest that prolonged creatine ingestion induces an increase in fat-free mass.
Creatine supplementation: a comparison of loading and maintenance protocols on creatine uptake by human skeletal muscle.
Preen D, Dawson B, Goodman C, Beilby J, Ching S.
Department of Human Movement and Exercise Science at The University of Western Australia, Crawley, W.A., Australia, 6009.
The purposes of this investigation were first to determine the impact of 3 different creatine (Cr) loading procedures on skeletal muscle total Cr (TCr) accumulation and, second, to evaluate the effectiveness of 2 maintenance regimes on retaining intramuscular TCr stores, in the 6 weeks following a 5-day Cr loading program (20 g x day(-1). Eighteen physically active male subjects were divided into 3 equal groups and administered either: (a) Cr (4 x 5 g x day(-1) x 5 days), (b) Glucose+Cr (1 g x (-1) of body mass twice per day), or © Cr in conjunction with 60 min of daily muscular (repeated-sprint) exercise. Following the 5-day loading period, subjects were reassigned to 3 maintenance groups and ingested either 0 g x day(-1), 2 g. day(-1) or 5 g x day(-1) of Cr for a period of 6 weeks. Muscle biopsy samples (vastus lateralis) were taken pre- and post-loading as well as post-maintenance and analyzed for skeletal muscle ATP, phosphocreatine (PCr), Cr, and TCr concentrations. Twenty-four hour urine samples were collected for each of the loading days and last 2 maintenance days, and used to determine whole body Cr retention. Post-loading TCr stores were significantly (p <.05) increased in all treatment conditions. The Glucose+Cr condition produced a greater elevation (p <.05) in TCr concentrations (25%) than the Cr Only (16%) or Exercise+Cr (18%) groups. Following the maintenance period, muscle TCr stores were still similar to post-loading values for both the 2 g x day(-1) and 5 g x day(-1) conditions. Intramuscular TCr values for the 0 g x day(-1) condition were significantly lower than the other conditions after the 6-week period. Although not significantly different from pre-loading concentrations, muscle TCr for the 0 g x day(-1) group had not fully returned to baseline levels at 6 weeks post-loading. The data suggests that Glucose+Cr (but with a much smaller glucose intake than currently accepted) is potentially the most effective means of elevating TCr accumulation in human skeletal muscle. Furthermore, after 5 days of Cr loading, elevated muscle TCr concentrations can be maintained by the ingestion of small daily Cr doses (2-5 g) for a period of 6 weeks and that TCr concentrations may take longer than currently accepted to return to baseline values after such a Cr loading regime.
I
imported_flow
Guest
Rb1fit, thanks for your effort.
These studies show that loading does have the desired effect. However, I found no test group which started out with a constant dosage of 2-5g/day as recommended by Dianabol, so not loading might still be equally effective??
Another important finding is that 2g/day seems to work fine as a maintenance dose, at least if one is willing to do another loading phase some weeks or months afterwards in order to ensure that creatine stores are not slowly depleted.
Are there any studies analyzing the effects of constant creatine dosage?
These studies show that loading does have the desired effect. However, I found no test group which started out with a constant dosage of 2-5g/day as recommended by Dianabol, so not loading might still be equally effective??
Another important finding is that 2g/day seems to work fine as a maintenance dose, at least if one is willing to do another loading phase some weeks or months afterwards in order to ensure that creatine stores are not slowly depleted.
Are there any studies analyzing the effects of constant creatine dosage?
I think that in the end it is up to you. There is evidence both ways. I will always load, I know it is a tried and true method and works. I want to start making gains in a few days, not a few weeks. So, you should experiment, do what works for you. There are even non -responders out there, so who knows what category you will be in.[b said:Quote[/b] (flow @ Sep. 01 2003,5:33)]Rb1fit, thanks for your effort.
These studies show that loading does have the desired effect. However, I found no test group which started out with a constant dosage of 2-5g/day as recommended by Dianabol, so not loading might still be equally effective??
Another important finding is that 2g/day seems to work fine as a maintenance dose, at least if one is willing to do another loading phase some weeks or months afterwards in order to ensure that creatine stores are not slowly depleted.
Are there any studies analyzing the effects of constant creatine dosage?
Good luck to you.....