I need some chest and other upper body advice.

[ajntorinj]

About a year and a half ago, I was working on a set of bench presses. I had a a pain in my chest, but since I did more reps the previous session, I tried to push through it. Needless to say, I injured myself, and I had to remove the bench press from my routine for about 4 months. While I recovered from the injury, I never made up for the ground that I lost. My 10 rep max is still a pitiful 135.
It is rather embarrassing to include this fact in addition to all of my other training failures, and I intend to remedy this problem of mine as soon as I can. I workout at home, so I do not own a dumbell set or a rack for dips. I, obviously, have a bench, as well as a squat rack and an EZ curl bar. My bench has the capability to go from 45 degree incline to a decline of a much lesser slope (I never use these options, as I don't know their significance.) My routine is as follows:
squat
bench
keystone deadlift
cable pulldown
bent-over row
half press
upright row
calf raise
EZ curl
skull crushers
shrug
forearm curl
What would you recommend? While we're at it, my shoulders suck, too, and my collar bones still stick out at at the top where I should have some trapezius muscle obscuring them. Thanks. I need all the help I can get.

 

[micmic]

I assume your routine is HST...

Here's what I would change:

1) I would always do slightly (25 degrees) incline bench instead of flat. I would do dips at all expenses, even with a couple of chairs. If that's impossible, I would add flyes as a second chest exercise.
2) Stiff leg deadlifts instead of keystone ones
3) I don't understand what you mean by "my shoulders suck". If you have a rotator cuff problem, then stick with half presses. If you just mean that they are weak, you should do full military presses (the bar below the chin). Either way, I would drop the upright rows and add lateral raises
4) I would also change the order of the exercises so that you don't hit the same muscle group in consequent exercises
5) I would do 2 sets (or even 3 while in the 5s) for compound exercises, keep time between sets at 90-120 sec and the whole workout around 60 min.

I don't understand what you mean by "training failures". If injuries and low weights can be classified as failures, then I guess a failure is even more common than a hardagainer

What will make you a winner is just your commitment

 

[jsraaf]

Quote[/b] ]1) I would always do slightly (25 degrees) incline bench instead of flat. I would do dips at all expenses, even with a couple of chairs. If that's impossible, I would add flyes as a second chest exercise.

If unable to do 15 dips, use decline bench press instead. Change to dips when you're at the right RM range.

Don't feel bad; I have very weak shoulders too... but working on it!

 

[micmic]

Quote[/b] ]I would drop the upright rows and add lateral raises

I forgot you don't have dumbbells.... But why not improvise and do them with plates ? It would be great fro your grip too

 

[ajntorinj]

Thanks for the replies. Micmic, it looks like you gave me some good advice, but I have some questions.

Why would you change keystones to SLDLs? I used to do SLDLs, but my form was horrible. I switched to keystones, and not only do I not burn out my lower back, but I also can do the movement properly, with greater weight, and hit my hams and glutes. I'm not trying to refute you; I'm just curious.

Why would you do full military presses instead of half presses? I don't have a rotator cuff problem, and my shoulders aren't necessarily weak, just not as big as I want them. I read on these forums the the half press hits the anterior delt as well as the full press, and I still have tricep strength to do the skullcrushers (otherwise, I cannot do both). Again, I'm just curious.

I guess I finally have an excuse to buy those olympic dumbells I've had my eye on. Hopefully lateral raises and flyes will help me out of my rut.
Also, if anyone has any suggestions on how to do dips without a dip station, I'd love to hear them. I don't know if I have chairs of the necessary height, but I'll use my ingenuity to figure something out.
Thanks again!

 

[micmic]

I favor sldl and full presses because they are both full ROM exercises.

If you find stiff leg dl difficult, I think straight leg dl would still be a better alternative. You can go all the way down and it certainly is easier to perform correctly.

Shoulder presses vertically abduct the arm. This abduction starts from when your arm is fully down and the only muscles that work are deltoids (anterior, posterior and medial), supraspinatus & infraspinatus. So, there are no other muscles helping the abduction even when the bar is low. Doing half presses is like doing half biceps curls.

 

[ajntorinj]

Rather than start a new thread, I'm just adding another question here. I added dips halfway through this cycle (I finally discovered a use for patio furniture). I went from 4 to 7 reps in two weeks. My chest got a little bigger, even though I am cutting weight! So thank you, Micmic! Next question: I am going to drop flat bench in favor of incline bench next cycle. I heard this is both a pec minor and anterior deltoid exercise; would it be better to keep or drop the military press from my routine? Thanks again.

 

[micmic]

Good!

The more the inclination, the more the anterior deltoids will be activated. If you keep the inclination below 25 degrees, there is no need to worry about overlap between military presses and incline bench.

Incline bench basically targets pectoralis major, but its higher head, the clavicular one. Anterior deltoids and triceps are synergists. Pec minor doesn't get activated (dips are better for pec minor).

It might be beneficial however to rotate exercises. Since you don't have dumbbells though, the options for the shoulders are limited. Although upright barbell row strains wrists and I would prefer
the dumbbell variation, you can still try it for your next cycle and leave military presses aside for a while.

Keep up the good work

 

[ajntorinj]

Oops. I forgot to mention that I did buy some olympic dumbells. I've switched to lateral raises halfway through the cycle (yeah, I know, but I couldn't wait). Obviously, there isn't much difference (I think my lagging right shoulder might be catching up, though), but they're definately a needed change that'll benefit me greatly. Now I just need buy some additional weights.
I don't know the angle of my bench's incline setting ( I lost my protractor). However, I think I'll try doing both next cycle. If it's too much, I drop the military press. Thanks again.

Edited to replace the word 'compass' with 'protractor' (what was I thinking?) and to mention that yesterday I did 10 dips whilst wearing a backpack with 5 lbs of weight (I did dips with patio chairs and a weighted backpack... the things I'll do to get big) all while cutting weight. Dips rock!

 

[Fausto]

ajntorinj (sounds viking, is it?)

All things considered Micmic has given you most of the necessary guidance

One tip that I see fit, if you have a lagging shoulder there is a nice way to get it going with side lateral raises, hold onto something and put yourself at an outward angle, with the free arm take up the dumbell and proceed with lateral raises somewhat against gravity, terrific way to catch up with shoulder girth.

Quote[/b] ]I don't know the angle of my bench's incline setting ( I lost my protractor). However, I think I'll try doing both next cycle. If it's too much, I drop the military press.

Whilst this does not matter at all, simply put your bench on the lowest setting that creates slight angle, if too high use a wood block just enough to create a visual low angle 15 - 20 degrees.

Military press has helped me greatly with the shoulders, although I am still not happy, I have since dropped it because

I do laterals followed by bent over raises without rest (a supperset that has been doing me some justice)

Dips really rocks mate, I dropped them though because I am scared of breaking the bar stools I have, they don't look like they can take a lot of weight, I was going to say you can use sawing horses for dips, but garden furniture does just fine.

I wish I had a bench capable of declines because they also rock, they actually get the bottom part of the pecs, (that part that seems to always stick to the ribs), going nicely but then again so do the dips.

You have a squat rack, then why not include some chin ups in exchange for something or even as an addition, works the lats like a devil, and the shoulders get some good work too

Lastly I'll agree with Micmic, upright rows tend to wreck shoulders and shrugs work the traps so much better, a variation on your deadlift by adding a shrug at the top of the movement saves time while adding to the traps.

Hey cut out the work on the forearms, do Zottman curls instead, curl up as normal then invert and lower, works first the bicep then the forearm as well as adding the hammer effect to the bicep, lenghtening your bicep muscle, a real all in one.

That's it "boet", let bigones be bigones

Fausto

 

[ajntorinj]

Thank you for the advice and olive branch, Fausto. We cannot pretend that we have no epistemological and ethical differences, but I am happy that we can talk muscle. My head is much bigger than my muscles, though hopefully my body can catch up.

Yesterday as an experiment, I actually did lateral raises exactly as you mentioned in your post. I was worried I was cheating or something by not doing both shoulders at once, so thanks for adding that in.

To any lurkers out there who aren't doing dips, Micmic was right: do dips at all expenses. My strength and size gains are incredible (38.125" to 39.5&quot. They're also great because one can safely do negs without assistance. I've never been willing to attempt negs on bench with only my trusty car jack stands as spotters.

I'm dropping flat benches as of the next workout for the remainder of my cycle. I'm doing dropsets on all exercises so removing repeated movements where I can will save me the effort of puking after the workout. Shrugging during the deadlift and the Zottman both look like good ideas, as well.

I think I'll try pull ups instead of pull downs next cycle, as you mentioned. I just hope I'm strong enough for them.

Overall, the 4 weeks of cutting seem to be time well spent. I've gone from 14% to 11.5% BF, according to my calipers. My traps have shrunk, admittedly, but overall I've had net muscle gains of 1 pound. I still have a week to go, though I intend to extend the cycle if I can.

BTW, Ajntorinj is a (ridiculous) variation of 'Agent Orange,' one of many alter egos I made up in junior high school. I use it only because I doubt that I will ever come across another Ajntorinj on the net.

 

[mikeh]

Quote[/b] ]ajntorinj, Posted on May 06 2003,8:52
I think I'll try pull ups instead of pull downs next cycle, as you mentioned. I just
hope I'm strong enough for them.

Good choice , can you do 5 ??
IF yes, do pulldowns for 15's /10's/ 5's then do chins the last couple of 5's workouts.

IF NOT, continue doing pulldowns until the negatives.
Start the neg's with 2 pullups then jump up and let yourself down (2 -3 seconds)
repeat until you just "fall".

That's how this guy I know started

 

[ajntorinj]

I hope I can do 5. I am doing negs with the pulldowns. For the eccentric, I hang my 168 lb self from the bar, which is enough to move the 250 lbs connected to it. I do not know my 'free weight' max; I haven't attempted a real pullup in about a year. I don't think I'll let that sway me, though. I've read many success stories of people's friend's acquaintances who did negs until they achieved a pullup. "One for the Corps!"

Edit: I went without the pull downs in lieu of pull ups today. After completed my 1.5 reps, it was determined the Corps won't get theirs for awhile. Also, by foregoing benches and combining the shrugs and keystones, I shaved 15 minutes off my workout time. This is because I'm cutting and doing dropsets, so I waste a lot of time catching my breath between sets. I'm glad I corrected that problem, as this workout was one of the best I've had lately. I managed to add weight to seven of the 11 movements I now perform, and I didn't come close to the ominous (and ubiquitous) feeling of nausea afterwards. Thanks again for the advice, all.

 

[mikeh]

Quote[/b] ] ajntorinj, Posted on May 06 2003,2:23
I hope I can do 5. I am doing negs with the pulldowns. For the eccentric, I hang my 168 lb
self from the bar, which is enough to move the 250 lbs connected to it.
I've read many success stories

You'll be one of them

... in fact you'll be adding weight for the negatives in no time !

 

[Fausto]

Agent orange

No problem, the olive branch is part of life, as I have pointed out before this is not exactly a batlle field and we all come here to get wiser not otherwise, besides as you can see our friend Bryan removed all other nuisance and left an order so that is it soldier oredrs we follow all rest is non-sense.

Quote[/b] ]Yesterday as an experiment, I actually did lateral raises exactly as you mentioned in your post. I was worried I was cheating or something by not doing both shoulders at once, so thanks for adding that in.

And I am sure that felt like a "million bucks"

Quote[/b] ]I think I'll try pull ups instead of pull downs next cycle, as you mentioned. I just hope I'm strong enough for them.

I wasn't exactly saying that you should give up pull downs, but rather use them as a supperset immediately after chins, so do the chins close inverted grip, and the pulldowns wide normal grip. Although I must admit after chins no one feels like a second set but put in some good rest (N.G.T. 2 minutes) and voi-la you get to grips again.

The close inverted grip allows for much more weight handling, I weigh in at 150 lbs and the last time I did those I used 28 Kgs attached for the 5's, shook like a leaf afterwards, but man what a feeling!

I wouldn't worry too much about the traps as they will soon respond specially if you start doing the "shrug on deads" every time.

Well you are on the right track now just "sweat blood and bleed iron", a saying I enjoyed from the brotherhood, a site called the iron dungeon, some enjoyable medieval stuff and real exagerated muscle bound warriors (drawings of course drawings, nice however).

Well soldier we back on track so cheers for now, I really can't post that much because I do it from work, so I try to do it when I am not too busy.

Ciao

Fausto