Give me an HST alternative

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need2eat

New Member
Havent posted here in a while, find myself at a crossroads.

I did the HST thing for quite a while, my physical results came to a stand still and I can forget lifting more lbs, doesnt wanna budge and all I was left with was a screwed up elbow and shoulder, for the nay sayers, yes I eat in excess and yes, I eat solid homecooked foods, plenty of protein/carbs.

I figured most would suggest I merely stick with the 15 and 10's, keep on truckin.  Which is the logical HST perspective I would imagine, but thought for the pure hell of it and to take up your time, I would ask if anyone might suggest another training approach. As someone once said, all programs work for a little while, Id just like a popular suggestion.

And yes, this post is just my way of asking for motivation/ inspiration.  
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Strength and hypertrophy both plateaued? You need to take a better look at your diet. If you are bulking (fast or slow), then your diet doesn't seem to be the problem. If you are feeling the lack of motivation, then try a quick one month HST cycle:

One week each of 15's, 10's, 5's, and 3's/post-5's

You need to be focused on your lifts in order for strength gains to happen. After that, try a strength routine such as Bill Starr's 5x5 approach. Browse the training logs section to see what other guys are doing. Some of their routines may interest you, which should take care of your motivation problem.

Good luck need2eat!
 
Are 3's a new HST community fad or is that your suggestion?

My motivation has definitely gone the way of the doe-doe,  I even bought a new utility bench, Ive sit on it a couple times.  
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need2eat, have a read of Russ' recent thread on his approach to an HST type workout but using a 10x3 set-up (10 sets of 3 reps).
Russ' 10x3
 
Yeah, seems to me if nutrition and diet are not the problem, you need to do a strength program, but first SD (body and mind).
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Even when doing the most basic HST I have used 3's , they can be very productive if 5's get stale and you are unable (no spotters) to perform negatives.
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Yeah, trying to avoid lifting heavy...faz nailed it...couldnt figure out why everyone wuz suggesting strength training and/or 3's.  
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I could do it but the pains not worth it, so Id like to stick to a higher rep range.


I gave the slingshot routine a look, thats just a wee bit complicated, when they come out with cliffnotes, let me know.
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Ive SD'd for a month, cough, or two now.
 
I came to HST because of a back problem. What I do is 15s, 10s and then 8s because if I go any heavier it could be bad for recovery. Perhaps you'd like to try that, too? It's just a minor trade, but it makes a good difference.
 
What I started this week, was doing total body everyday but using light weight...

Ill probably end up doing something simillar though, unless someone can offer me something that involves light to moderate poundage use.
 
at the moment i am changing gyms,and the new gym doesnt have enough heavy weights only about my 8rm on most things.

so i was thinking of doing more TUT type trainig for a bit,
see how important TUT really is,so i was going to start at 80% of my 15rm and work to faliure (rep out) not muscular faliure,form faliure.
i was going to increase the weight every wk doing 2 sets untill i get to 8rm,then instead of increasing the weight i was goint to increase the reps for as long as i can then sd.
 
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(need2eat @ Oct. 31 2007,12:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What I started this week, was doing total body everyday but using light weight...

Ill probably end up doing something simillar though, unless someone can offer me something that involves light to moderate poundage use.</div>
Have you tried ACIT?

I think there might be some merit too it, especially if the elbow's and shoulders aren't feeling pleasant.
 
I tend to be conservative and analytic:

Its when you fail that you learn, unless you're dense. I'm not bullshitting you.

Get your injuries figured out first. They could be chronic pain or something in need of attention. For example, a tendon in my left knee is easily aggravated sometimes causing swelling or pain. I've had a family practitioner and a sports med physician examine it and each concluded my knee is structurally sound. I also have a shoulder that does not like pressing movements or reverse flyes and an ankle that has been ambushing me every few days for almost a month. Neither have been looked at and I will have them looked at before I lift again.

The effectiveness of any new program will be hampered by your injuries.

Workout anyway to maintain what you have. You may not gain, but keeping muscle is still better than losing muscle. It is the lesser of two evils. As you are doing this get your injuries figured out. Once your elbow and shoulder are restored only then consider a new system.

Here's two systems I have used and seen results with. Both are unpopular:

HIT

SCT

Here's two more: Max-Stim and PITT-Force.

Muscle building is still an imperfect science. You're new chosen system may fail for the same reason your current one is.
 
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(QuantumPositron @ Nov. 01 2007,15:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I tend to be conservative and analytic:

Its when you fail that you learn, unless you're dense.  I'm not bullshitting you.

Get your injuries figured out first.  They could be chronic pain or something in need of attention.  For example, a tendon in my left knee is easily aggravated sometimes causing swelling or pain.  I've had a family practitioner and a sports med physician examine it and each concluded my knee is structurally sound.  I also have a shoulder that does not like pressing movements or reverse flyes and an ankle that has been ambushing me every few days for almost a month.  Neither have been looked at and I will have them looked at before I lift again.</div>
Makes totally sense to me. When I do dumbbell / barbell front raises, my right arm hurts so much that I can't do much with it for over two weeks. All examination to this day said my arm is just fine - even if I was nearly whining in pain. I just ditched the exercise and everything's been fine ever since.
 
What about something like max-ot?

Ive thought it over and I dont see a reason why someone couldnt use a higher rep range, as long as, they dont get lactic acid build up from the higher reps and/or able to achieve concentric failure with the weight.

Then I could control which movements to perform based on my limitations and it would allow plenty of time for recovery.

This is all based on the idea that higher reps would be acceptable, as long as lactic acid isnt coming into play.

Thoughts?
 
Higher reps mean lighter loads irrespective of any lactic acid build up. Lighter loads will not be as effective for triggering a PS response as heavier loads (not for long anyway, even if you are suitably deconditioned), particularly if you have been lifting for a while now (which you obviously have). No way round that. If you actually want to gain more size then you have to get your injuries sorted (or, at least, structure a program so that they are not further aggravated) so you can progress to using heavier loads again.

Whatever form your training eventually takes you are going to be limited in what you can do and can accomplish because of your injuries. You may well be able to work around them for your lower body without aggravating them further and, if that's the case, there is no reason why you shouldn't use a progression working up to heavier loads for your lower body. However, fixing those injuries, if possible, or getting on a path to recovery should be a top priority. Do you know which movements specifically caused your injuries? What kind of routine have you been using? What has your doc said?

Probably not much help to you so far. If you really don't want to work up to heavy loads again then any progression that you do will have to be shorter. As you suggested, you could try doing 15s and 10s; I'd do consecutive 3 week cycles of 15s and 10s but without SD between each shortened cycle, perhaps SDing every third cycle. First cycle I'd do 2 weeks of 15s and 2 weeks of 10s. Then I'd return to 15s but only do 1 week before getting back into the 10s with minimal zig-zag. I'd repeat that for three or four cycles before taking a week for SD. The single week of 15s would act as a slight deload. I'd try to do 2 sets during 15s and 3 sets during 10s, clustering after the first set if need be. I'd hope to be able to hit new PBs for all my lifts at the end of the last mini-cycle before SD.

ie. your cycle might look like this:

Week 1: 15s
Week 2: 15s
Week 3: 10s
Week 4: 10s

Week 5: 15s
Week 6: 10s
Week 7: 10s

Week 8: 15s
Week 9: 10s
Week 10: 10s

If things are going well do another mini-cycle or SD

Rinse &amp; repeat.
 
I think I might try that, I have all these hst charts printed out, might was well use them.
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NOw for general thought, dont hate me  
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 but Im not totally convinced that handling a heavier load, necassarily means thats optimal or that hyptertroph will always occur.

My theory, if I can use enough weight to create a concentric failure on the lift and  avoid lactic acid as much as possible, then I might be able to trigger growth.  As the muscle itself has no clue as to whats happenig, just the results of.  

True, more reps = lighter weight but its also an HST theory that the 15's, intention is to trigger a little lactic acid to assist in growth in the 10's and 5's, correct, I may be wrong.

Thoughts?



And now Id like some expert input on something.  Is strength nothing more than the ability to recruite cells in the muscle or efficiency of?  Seems Ive read that muscle  size plays little in regards to actual strength of someone.  I know the trend now is to lift heavy, get strong and you will get big, which isnt entirely true, as you cant control muscle efficiency, unless you train the muscle to lift, which doesnt necassarily mean hypertrophy will occur maybe increased efficiency of existing cells or fiber or what have you.  Correct?  Im just not convinced that someone has to lift heavy all the time to get bigger, Ive probably asked this before and gotten a reply, just something I pondered again and Im not convinced.  Throw some input my way.
 
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(need2eat @ Nov. 02 2007,16:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My theory, if I can use enough weight to create a concentric failure on the lift and  avoid lactic acid as much as possible, then I might be able to trigger growth.  As the muscle itself has no clue as to whats happenig, just the results of.  

True, more reps = lighter weight but its also an HST theory that the 15's, intention is to trigger a little lactic acid to assist in growth in the 10's and 5's, correct, I may be wrong.

Thoughts?



And now Id like some expert input on something.  Is strength nothing more than the ability to recruite cells in the muscle or efficiency of?  Seems Ive read that muscle  size plays little in regards to actual strength of someone.  I know the trend now is to lift heavy, get strong and you will get big, which isnt entirely true, as you cant control muscle efficiency, unless you train the muscle to lift, which doesnt necassarily mean hypertrophy will occur maybe increased efficiency of existing cells or fiber or what have you.  Correct?  Im just not convinced that someone has to lift heavy all the time to get bigger, Ive probably asked this before and gotten a reply, just something I pondered again and Im not convinced.  Throw some input my way.</div>
In a respect you are correct, the MUs are either on or off. Since MUs are recruited in an orderly fashion, slowest to fastest, and this is based on the total tension (force) needed to counter an external force it stands to reason that the lower the external force the longer one must &quot;work&quot; against it when trying to activate as many MUs as possible.

Now there are ways of &quot;tricking&quot; faster fibers to come out and play.

1. Occlusion definately does this
2. Speed
3. Repetitive contractions
4. And of course load

Lactic acid does not assist in growth in the 15's, it may aid in tendon repair.

Strength is a combination of factors.

Muscle Architecture
Muscle fiber size
Joint Angle
Neural Activation

Muscle architecture-This changes as muscles grow and mostly refers to the pennation angle of the fibers.

Muscle fiber size- The larger the fiber the more actin-myosin binding

Joint Angle-When the fibers are stretched or contracted outside of their optimum length there are less actin-myosin binding sites available and hence the force generation of the fiber is diminished.

Neural-This refers to not only the ability to activate the target muscle but also to activate synergyst and deactivate antagonists.

So when looking at strength.

If the neural, architecture, and joint angle doesn't change but you are gaining strength then it must be due to fiber size increases and vice versa, if you are gaining fiber size you will get stronger.
 
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