From DC to HST

mb2

New Member
I'm interested in starting HST, but I'm unclear what advantage there is for me in starting at 15 reps after several months of doing the so-called Dogcrapp routine.

This will mean a huge drop back in weight. Why would it not make more sense to start at 10 reps since I've already been lifting regularly and adding 5 lbs every workout? The 10 reps will also entail a drop but nothing as drastic as the 15s.

Am I missing something?

I've searched and can't find this question answered.
 
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html

No offense, but this gets asked constantly and 90% of the guys who start HST are always like "But i wanna skip the 15s bro, the weight is too light."

Read the HST article and understand it, then do the program as outlined and include the 15s. By the end of the cycle, you will be glad you did them. If you are moderately strong and select good exercises, the 15s can be quite challenging. A lot of us are starting out with pretty heavy weights already in the 15s for things like deadlifts, squats and rows. They aren't necessarily easy.
 
Yeah I know how hard it is to get over the "shut up and lift dude" attitude, that heavier is always better, but Bryan Haycock and the others have put a lot of time and research into coming up with the best Hypertrophy Specific Program that exists, and progressive load is one of the most important aspects of that. You have to remember that most weights training programs are based on strength or intensity training, not hypertrophy. DC and HIT especially are designed to hammer you, but are not necessarily the best thing for muscle growth. Read the FAQ section on Bryans thoughts on DC and muscle growth. Read all the articles and FAQs and get a good understanding of HST and why it works, try the program as prescribed (its only 8 weeks), and then judge it. I guarantee you will understand it better once you're doing it, and as Totentanz says you'll be glad you did the 15s, plus its essential to do light weights at the start to create progression. Think of the lighter weights as SD so the heavier weights will be more effective later.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">7.5. DC/Doggcrapp method

DC's suggestions betray his strength training background.
Methods based on fatigue/exhaustion (training to failure and rest/pause stuff) are really methods of increasing strength.

So in essence, he is shifting the emphasis towards strength gains. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that if that is your goal. All you have to do is induce more fatigue, and train less frequently.

Using a variety of exercise won't protect your tendons from injury. Using the same exercises doesn't increase your risk of injury either. Otherwise all Olympic lifters would be injured all the time. The variety thing is more an influence of BB mags.

Although, if boredom is an issue, switch things up all your want, just make sure that the muscle is experiencing the same relative tension and demands across different exercises.

DC (I don't know him personally) is only one of many variations of HST that you will see in the near future. Especially from more experienced lifters. Why? Because HST is true (so to speak). It isn't based on &quot;tradition&quot;, a &quot;style&quot;, &quot;Russian secrets&quot;, or even an &quot;opinion&quot;.

HST is based on the way muscles actually grow in response to training. As a result, there will be a gradual yet natural shift of bodybuilding training styles towards HST.</div>

Thought I'd save you some time, these two parts of the FAQ e-book should answer your questions.
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">8.4. So how is HST different from other training programs?

This is a very good question and one that deserves to be answered, without simply zealously defending the premise that is being questioned. This makes for a very bad circular argument that can be VERY frustrating for people with skeptical, though honest, questions.

First, let's start with what isn't different about HST compared with previous training programs. The length of this list is what has raised this question in the first place, and justifiably so. Let's begin with the &quot;concepts&quot; and then follow with the &quot;methods&quot;.

Pre-existing Scientific Concepts of Weight Training Found in HST:
• Stimulus Leads to Adaptation (cause and effect)
• Specific Adaptation to Implied Demands (SAID) or simply &quot;Specificity&quot;
• Progressive Resistance
• Some relationship between Time and Tension
• Diminishing Returns

Pre-existing Methods of Weight Training Found in HST:
• Traditional Weight Lifting Movements both compound and isolation (squat, bench, curls, etc)
• Training the whole body 3 times per week
• Altering weight loads used over time
• Altering the number of repetitions used over time
• Doing eccentric reps (negatives)

There has never been a weight training program that did not incorporate or mention most of these Concepts, and at least some of these Methods. Entire books (big books) have been written to explore these concepts and teach these methods.

Whenever research was required, like for a textbook, you would find &quot;strength and conditioning&quot; research sited to support the validity of the concepts and virtues of each particular training method. The studies used &quot;strength&quot; and other &quot;performance indicators&quot; as a measure of whether the concept and/or method were valid.

This has been perfectly sufficient for nearly everybody including trainers, teachers, professors, coaches and athletes, who have ever lifted a weight. For those who needed more, they simply explored other methods for steadily increasing body mass - I'm referring specifically to hormones.

The exploration of the hypertrophic effects of hormones began in the 50s and has continued unabated every since. Today, a competitive bodybuilder considers himself conservative if he only uses 1 gram of Testosterone per week.

Lest I digress, we are not including the effects of androgens and other drugs in this discussion. That is a different issue with concepts and methods specific to the pharmacology and endocrinology of hormones and muscle tissue.

Now let's consider the concepts and/or principles or beliefs of traditional weight training that HST refutes. These are the concepts that the new research refutes most specifically.

Pre-existing Concepts that HST Refutes:
• A muscle must be fully recovered before you should train it again.
• You should not train a muscle that is sore (DOMS, not injury).
• You must never train a muscle on consecutive days. (i.e. train the same muscle everyday)
• The concept of &quot;Overtraining&quot; in general as it applies to bodybuilding.
• You must train with maximum &quot;intensity&quot; to elicit significant muscle growth.
• You should not use eccentric training on a &quot;frequent&quot; basis.
• You must change your exercise selection regularly in order to &quot;confuse the muscle&quot; into continued growth.
• You must hit a muscle at every angle in order to adequately train it.
• Muscle Fatigue is the primary indicator of having triggered the growth signal
• You must effectively isolate a muscle in order to train it effectively.
• You can train a muscle in such as way as to change its natural shape.

Pre-existing Methods and/or practices that HST Refutes:
• Training a muscle no more than once or twice per week.
• Training less frequently as your &quot;intensity&quot; increases.
• Adding weight only when you can complete a certain number of additional reps at that weight. (This is a fundamental difference!
• Training to failure every set and/or workout (If you don't how would you know if you can perform additional reps at that weight yet?)
• Forced reps
• Performing several &quot;obligatory&quot; exercises per body part per workout
• Performing multiple exhaustive sets per exercise
• Changing exercises to &quot;confuse&quot; the muscle.

The above erroneous concepts/beliefs and the methods and/or practices they engender are the cause of all the confusion and different training programs out their today. Most all of it stems from bodybuilding magazines fabricating these concepts and practices to address their ongoing need for new content each month, and to conceal the use of drugs required to attain the level of mass flaunted by the sponsored models.

By limiting your study of muscle growth to these magazines you will be ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. But that is an issue to be addressed elsewhere.

Now, there is one traditional concept with its associated methods and practices that often make HST appear to be like previous programs. That is the concept of &quot;periodization&quot;.

We will only briefly discuss the topic of periodization, as only a brief treatise will be sufficient to show the differences between periodization and HST. For more detailed discussions of periodization you are advised to read &quot;Super Training:

Special Strength Training for Sporting Excellence&quot; by Siff &amp; Verkhoshansky, &quot;Special Strength Training&quot; by Verkhoshansky, &quot;Fundamentals of Sport Training&quot; by Matveyev and &quot;Science and Practice of Strength Training&quot; by Zatsiorski.

Traditional concepts of periodization are based on methods used to manipulate intensity (i.e. work and/or load), volume and frequency in order to manage CNS fatigue and adaptability in athletes.

To date, the art of periodization has entered the mathematical age and significant progress is being made in modeling systems designed to predict CNS fatigue and changes in the individual's fitness level. (1, 2, 3). Once an individual familiarizes him or herself with the true concept of periodization, they will immediately see the difference between Strategic Deconditioning and Periodization for strength training.

For example, here are a few differences between SD and Periodization:
• SD is used to decrease fitness level (A.K.A. conditioning).
• Periodization is used to increase fitness level.
• SD is used to increase the micro trauma associated with training.
• Periodization is used to decrease the trauma associated with training.
• SD is used to reduce work capacity.
• Periodization is used to increase work capacity.
• SD is applied irrespective of the need for &quot;rest&quot;.
• Periodization according to the need for rest.
• SD is not based on &quot;peaking&quot; performance.
• Periodization's sole purpose is to allow the athlete to peak on a specific date.

So, when people ask, &quot;What's different about HST?&quot;, tell them ...plenty! And its those differences that make HST superior to any other bodybuilding training method existing today.</div>

Enjoy
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take 9 days away from lifting, then start back doing 15s,if you have not done that many reps before you will find them quit hard,
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I'm just gonna testify and agree with Faz...I didn't deload and went right from failure training to HST and didn't gain a thing the first cycle. Then took TWO WEEKS off to make sure I deloaded (you don't really need that much) and I exploded on my second cycle. The 15's really WILL be harder than you (or your muscles) think.

Oh, and HST training healed my sore joints. While training!
 
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(Totentanz @ Sep. 18 2006,02:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html

No offense, but this gets asked constantly and 90% of the guys who start HST are always like &quot;But i wanna skip the 15s bro, the weight is too light.&quot;

Read the HST article and understand it, then do the program as outlined and include the 15s. By the end of the cycle, you will be glad you did them. If you are moderately strong and select good exercises, the 15s can be quite challenging. A lot of us are starting out with pretty heavy weights already in the 15s for things like deadlifts, squats and rows. They aren't necessarily easy.</div>
Of course I have read everything there is to read on the program. I don't change programs without thorough research. But nothing presented here explains why such a drastic reduction in weight, even with an increase of 5 to 7 reps (from 8 or 10 on DC) would be of advantage to someone who has worked out for years and is already using high-rep warmups.

Were I coming back after a layoff, this would make more sense to me.

I'm gonna follow the prescription, but nothing anyone furnished in the thread answered my question in its particular CONTEXT. Everything simply reiterates the theory without addressing history of the lifter.

Contrary to some of the claims here, by the way, I made very significant size gains on DC training, as I did on 5x5 before that. I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes. Thanks for the input.
 
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(mb2 @ Sep. 18 2006,15:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Totentanz @ Sep. 18 2006,02:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html

No offense, but this gets asked constantly and 90% of the guys who start HST are always like &quot;But i wanna skip the 15s bro, the weight is too light.&quot;

Read the HST article and understand it, then do the program as outlined and include the 15s. By the end of the cycle, you will be glad you did them. If you are moderately strong and select good exercises, the 15s can be quite challenging. A lot of us are starting out with pretty heavy weights already in the 15s for things like deadlifts, squats and rows. They aren't necessarily easy.</div>
Of course I have read everything there is to read on the program. I don't change programs without thorough research. But nothing presented here explains why such a drastic reduction in weight, even with an increase of 5 to 7 reps (from 8 or 10 on DC) would be of advantage to someone who has worked out for years and is already using high-rep warmups.

Were I coming back after a layoff, this would make more sense to me.

I'm gonna follow the prescription, but nothing anyone furnished in the thread answered my question in its particular CONTEXT. Everything simply reiterates the theory without addressing history of the lifter.

Contrary to some of the claims here, by the way, I made very significant size gains on DC training, as I did on 5x5 before that. I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes. Thanks for the input.</div>
If you made significant size gains using DC (or 5 x 5), why would you switch?

I never really understood that. If you find something is working well for you, milk it for all it's worth until it's no longer working well.

As to the 15's, the 'point' of the 15's isn't to make you grow per se, but rather to prepare your muscles/connective tissue for the heavy loading to come.

With your training experience, I'd also stick to the 80% rule, which is to start each minicycle (15s, 10s, 5s) with approximately 80% of your best effort for that lift.

I would also do the SD first, ~two weeks being my default suggestion for HST.
 
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(mikeynov @ Sep. 18 2006,15:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you made significant size gains using DC (or 5 x 5), why would you switch?</div>
That's an absolutely awesome point, you've gotta get the idea out of your head that you just have to go hammer-and-tongs with the heaviest weight you can and destroy your muscles to make them grow. Progressive load is what stimulates muscle, and in order for your body to notice the progression, you have to start out with light weights. If you're always lifting heavy weights the repeat bout effect (RBE) will make the weight your lifting, no matter how heavy, ineffective.

If DC is working for you, stick to that. When you plateau, come back to HST with your tale between your legs, trust the experts like Bryan and Dan Moore, and do HST as prescribed.

And Fausto, pasting the FAQ, now who's spoon feeding?
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But nothing presented here explains why such a drastic reduction in weight, even with an increase of 5 to 7 reps (from 8 or 10 on DC) would be of advantage to someone who has worked out for years and is already using high-rep warmups.</div>
As several of the guys have mentioned, an HST cycle would be much less effective if you went straight from heavy lifting to starting on 15s. If you have read everything then you will have come across an explanation for the Repeated Bout Effect (RBE). To get around the RBE you need a period of SD before you start an HST cycle.

There is a bit of debate over how effective SD actually is, but, suffice it to say, it does have an effect. If you have been doing DC and heavy 5x5 for a while then SD for 14 days (which you will hate after a week!) before starting on the 15s.

It is quite all right to do more than 15 reps at the beginning of 15s. I often do 25 reps when the load is around 75% of my 15RM. Or, you can just slow the reps right down. Your goal is to go after a good burn.

I think if you give HST a fair chance and 'follow the prescription', as you say, by taking a 14 day SD before you start the cycle then you will not be disappointed.

Be sure to focus on heavy compounds in your w/o. You obviously know how much you have to eat as you have been making good gains already. Be sure to upgrade your calorific requirement as you gain weight too.
 
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(Peak_Power @ Sep. 18 2006,17:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(mikeynov @ Sep. 18 2006,15:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you made significant size gains using DC (or 5 x 5), why would you switch?</div>
That's an absolutely awesome point, you've gotta get the idea out of your head that you just have to go hammer-and-tongs with the heaviest weight you can and destroy your muscles to make them grow. Progressive load is what stimulates muscle, and in order for your body to notice the progression, you have to start out with light weights. If you're always lifting heavy weights the repeat bout effect (RBE) will make the weight your lifting, no matter how heavy, ineffective.

If DC is working for you, stick to that. When you plateau, come back to HST with your tale between your legs, trust the experts like Bryan and Dan Moore, and do HST as prescribed.

And Fausto, pasting the FAQ, now who's spoon feeding?
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Well, I should have been clearer about my motivation. I've already taken about 9 days off (but I don't even think of this as much of a layoff; I do that every few months). I felt that I had plateaued with DC; that's why I used the past tense to refer to my gains on it. During the week-plus off, I've been researching new routines.

Also, the last six months, I have done DC in combination with rehab specifically directed at some joint problems (including a serious knee injury &amp; surgery), so I'm quite used to do doing high reps in combination with the usual DC rest-pause. I have done these high-rep sets every workout before doing the rest-pause sets (which I have to keep comparatively low, weight-wise, for the present when working legs).

I am not convinced, in fact, that DC (and 5x5) didn't contribute to my joint problems with their constant emphasis on always maxing out.

So part of my attraction to HST **is** its emphasis on connective tissue. But my rehab team disagrees that you can adequately prepare connective tissue two weeks ahead of heavier weight training. They think one must sustain that work throughout a cycle. I argue back that I won't be going to failure every set, so I wanna give it a try and see how it goes.

I might also add that I'm 46, 6', 230 lbs, 49 chest, 33 waist. I'm not looking to get a lot bigger and I think I'm too old to be doing heavy deadlifts and squats any more. I've been in gyms literally since I was five years old doing gymnastics and lifting since I was 17 with very few years off. I'm only saying this to indicate that I've tried A LOT of routines over the years and learned to be suspiciouis of any that claim to have uncovered a &quot;science&quot; to bodybuilding. For proof, try reading Joe Weider with a straight face now.
 
You're never too old for heavy deadlifts and squats.
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I basically do a 5x5 type of routine now, I just use the 15, 10, 5 rep scheme for most of the cycle. For example, Monday and Friday I do olympic squats, bench and pendlay rows. If you did well with a 5x5, I'd stick with that, just incorporate HST principals.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">And Fausto, pasting the FAQ, now who's spoon feeding?  </div>

Gotta do it sometime.
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am not convinced, in fact, that DC (and 5x5) didn't contribute to my joint problems with their constant emphasis on always maxing out. </div>

You can bet it did, just ask Quad...and HST &quot;fixed&quot; him up...that is mainly the function of the 15's, some however have a growing side effect
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and are very happy with it, it is however a &quot;side effect&quot;
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But my rehab team  disagrees that you can adequately prepare connective tissue two weeks ahead of heavier weight training.</div>

HST has been proving guys like that wrong for a while, lets do it again!
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm not looking to get a lot bigger and I think I'm too old to be doing heavy deadlifts and squats any more. I've been in gyms literally since I was five years old doing gymnastics and lifting since I was 17 with very few years off. </div>

We'd like to prove you wrong, many of us, the best example being O &amp; G and Quad (60 odd &amp; 53 respectivelly) lifting some impressive weights so...how about giving it a bash?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">For proof, try reading Joe Weider with a straight face now. </div>

Around these circles that is a real hard thing to do, it might just &quot;confuse us thouroughly&quot;
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Well, I SERIOUSLY injured my knees -- broke the patellar tendons in both of them in two separate accidents on the same day. I won't be squatting or deadlifing for another six months if at all (and it's been six months since the surgery). I'm doing leg presses but the whole business of repairing connective tissue is high reps, as you know. So I do sets of up to 25 plus heavy sets of 8/10.

I definitely think the patellar injury was due in part to the very heavy poundages I was squatting and leg-pressing in 5x5 and DC, although I've had knee pain for years -- just thought it was the price of working out so much so long.

As for Mr. Weider, during a darker period of my life, I did ghost-writing for two of his body-builders. It was a lot like being paid to be a pathological liar.
 
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(mb2 @ Sep. 18 2006,22:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Peak_Power @ Sep. 18 2006,17:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(mikeynov @ Sep. 18 2006,15:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you made significant size gains using DC (or 5 x 5), why would you switch?</div>
That's an absolutely awesome point, you've gotta get the idea out of your head that you just have to go hammer-and-tongs with the heaviest weight you can and destroy your muscles to make them grow. Progressive load is what stimulates muscle, and in order for your body to notice the progression, you have to start out with light weights. If you're always lifting heavy weights the repeat bout effect (RBE) will make the weight your lifting, no matter how heavy, ineffective.

If DC is working for you, stick to that. When you plateau, come back to HST with your tale between your legs, trust the experts like Bryan and Dan Moore, and do HST as prescribed.

And Fausto, pasting the FAQ, now who's spoon feeding?
tounge.gif
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Well, I should have been clearer about my motivation. I've already taken about 9 days off (but I don't even think of this as much of a layoff; I do that every few months). I felt that I had plateaued with DC; that's why I used the past tense to refer to my gains on it. During the week-plus off, I've been researching new routines.

Also, the last six months, I have done DC in combination with rehab specifically directed at some joint problems (including a serious knee injury &amp; surgery), so I'm quite used to do doing high reps in combination with the usual DC rest-pause. I have done these high-rep sets every workout before doing the rest-pause sets (which I have to keep comparatively low, weight-wise, for the present when working legs).

I am not convinced, in fact, that DC (and 5x5) didn't contribute to my joint problems with their constant emphasis on always maxing out.

So part of my attraction to HST **is** its emphasis on connective tissue. But my rehab team disagrees that you can adequately prepare connective tissue two weeks ahead of heavier weight training. They think one must sustain that work throughout a cycle. I argue back that I won't be going to failure every set, so I wanna give it a try and see how it goes.

I might also add that I'm 46, 6', 230 lbs, 49 chest, 33 waist. I'm not looking to get a lot bigger and I think I'm too old to be doing heavy deadlifts and squats any more. I've been in gyms literally since I was five years old doing gymnastics and lifting since I was 17 with very few years off. I'm only saying this to indicate that I've tried A LOT of routines over the years and learned to be suspiciouis of any that claim to have uncovered a &quot;science&quot; to bodybuilding. For proof, try reading Joe Weider with a straight face now.</div>
I would tend to agree with the people you're referencing here.

15s are a good GENERAL conditioning tool for heavier loads, but if you have specific problems, keep up the rehab/prehab work, the high rep floofy stuff throughout your cycle.

Health &gt; aesthetic concerns, imho.

Also, you could shift to higher rep ranges for problem areas, e.g. your knees.

20s, 15s, 10s being one valid approach, I think.
 
Yeah, my intention is to follow the prescribed system on my upper body but continue accenting high-rep sets with leg extensions and leg presses, increasing the weight slowly. Leg curls are no problem, but I can't do SL deadlifts because of knee instability....My knees are not in danger or reinjury after six months, according to my surgeon. The problem is the stablizing muscles.

I really appreciate all the feedback, advice and patience.
 
mb2 - It sounds like you may need a tailored structure for your routine...IMO the injury rehab takes precedence and as Mikey suggested, a different rep scheme. And since you're in day 9 or so on your decon, just a few more won't hurt to make sure HST works for you. As for the 15's, it sounds like you've been doing a heck of a lot of high rep work, and are probably used to it and all, but dont' forget that the 15's are progressive to your max, so in a way, they are actually part of the decon, but transforming into the workout/growth cycle itself.
I don't find much relief going from the last day of 15's to the first day of 10's! Some of this you'll have to tailor for yourself, but the hardest part is letting go of the preassumed notions we picked up torturing ourselves. You should have seen what I called HST when I first heard about it! Hooboy!
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Also, you could shift to higher rep ranges for problem areas, e.g. your knees.

20s, 15s, 10s being one valid approach, I think. </div>

I agree with Mikey, you might as well tailor you w/o to accomodate the leg problem, the rest of teh upper body should then be done as per normal HST.
 
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(quadancer @ Sep. 19 2006,20:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">mb2 - It sounds like you may need a tailored structure for your routine...IMO the injury rehab takes precedence and as Mikey suggested, a different rep scheme. And since you're in day 9 or so on your decon, just a few more won't hurt to make sure HST works for you. As for the 15's, it sounds like you've been doing a heck of a lot of high rep work, and are probably used to it and all, but dont' forget that the 15's are progressive to your max, so in a way, they are actually part of the decon, but transforming into the workout/growth cycle itself.
I don't find much relief going from the last day of 15's to the first day of 10's! Some of this you'll have to tailor for yourself, but the hardest part is letting go of the preassumed notions we picked up torturing ourselves. You should have seen what I called HST when I first heard about it! Hooboy!
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Oh I've been adding 2.5 or 5 lbs to every high-rep leg extension workout and 10 to the leg presses. I do sets of 35, 25 and 15 on leg extension. Leg press I do 20, 15 and 10.

I can't take a complete layoff from my legs. The rehab people consider it essential I continue those 3x weekly at the minimum. When I said I'd laid off 9 days, I was talking about my upper body and foregoing any heavy work on my legs.
 
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