fat loss supplements

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bob Evans @ July 11 2002,04:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1) Arginine (6 grams/day)  (the powder tastes like dog farts)

2) Lysine     (4 grams / day)

3) Ribose     (2grams / day)

4) Potassium Bicarbonate (2 teaspoons mix with 1 Gal water sipped thru-out the day)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Arginine - worthless
Lysine - Worthless

Ribose - usually worthless (research shows nuttin), some rare people get somehting out of it, but then again some rare person gets something outta biotin
wow.gif


Bicarb - Can be usefull, but not sipped throughout the day. If you are doing a highly lactic acid producing training (15's) then taking it before training might be useful. But it doesnt really make much of a difference.
 
I disagree to some accounts of Aaron_F, but for the most part he is right on (again, just my opinion):

The Lysine and Arginine research is all screwed up! I think it could show certain increases in GH production if and only if first of all taken with the right cofactors - in essence a B-vitamin would do wonders....you need pantothenic acid and choline in sufficient amounts (roughly 2-3 grams each). Nicotinic acid also has shown to be of somem benefit.

problems that arise however and why it seems impractical to most:

1. you would want to cause a couple GH surges throughout the day which would only happen if you take these on an empty stomach - a bodybuilder's stomach being truly &quot;empty&quot; - hehe that will be the day

2. B-vitamins water solubility: hmmmm, you may even have to take these &quot;double time&quot; to ensure enough of the cofactors would be present to get the response you are looking for

- no research adequately takes all this into account really - at least nt in trained populations....so many people I think erroneously dub them &quot;worthless&quot; when perhaps a better description is simply &quot;impractical&quot;
 
But the absolute difference of gH from this is minimal. If injecting large quantities of gH does little, what will taking large doses of aminos do.
 
Well, first I do not think increasing endogenous GH levels does &quot;little&quot; for muscle gains and/or fat loss (dependent upon the goal).

But, I don't think GH has a hell of a lot to do with it either. you use GH to subsequently increase IGF-1 levels. Because this is known to decrease throughout the lifespan (and nope, I ain't even a life extensionist), you would have to assume the gains visualized are dependent upon replenishing your normal youth-like GH levels --- IGF-1 levels.

Before I comment further, could you tell me what exactly you meant with the comment &quot;absolute difference?&quot; I just want to be certain I understand you before I erroneously say something I am not saying and try and understand if we are pretty much saying the same thing - but you remain in the more extreme opposition camp than I.
 
Sign me up in Aaron's camp too, when it comes to GH boosters. I have seen GH boosters on the market -- I am chagrined to see that they are just amino acids designed to raise GH about 28%. Well, a good lifting will boost GH more than by 2 x than so called boosters. Not to mention that all supplements BBs generally take will shadow those amino's effect.

Now, if you are injecting GH itself ... maybe -- but isn't that expensive?
 
2 questions/comments:

1. Biotest's MD6 and T2 Pro? I find the combo cuts the appetite and carb cravings, and little to no ephedrine buzz. Anyone else?

2. What about the new study showing the negative effects of caffiene on insulin sensitivity? I cut caffiene from my carb intake and I do notice less of an effect of the carbs. Any thoughts?

Timm
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (virtualcyber @ July 16 2002,09:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sign me up in Aaron's camp too, when it comes to GH boosters.  I have seen GH boosters on the market -- I am chagrined to see that they are just amino acids designed to raise GH about 28%.  Well, a good lifting will boost GH more than by 2 x than so called boosters.  Not to mention that all supplements BBs generally take will shadow those amino's effect.

    Now, if you are injecting GH itself ... maybe -- but isn't that expensive?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
wow! 28% to what? I agree with you guys to a degree - Secretogues on the market currently suck - so please do not mistakenly think I am suggesting this at any length because I am not. Let's think of it this way - any food - and that is any at all will suppress GH to a degree and we eat all the freakin' time - right? These aminos MUST be taken on an ampty stomach and with the proper B-vitamin dosing (which none of the GH boosters take into account).

I did not mean to divy us up to any degree but developing &quot;camps&quot; - what I meant by that comment was he was further to the left so to speak. I think we agree for the most part - really I do.

Now, without IGF-1, where are you? Test is good - but Test plus IGF-1 is better!

Supplements &quot;effects&quot; are shadowed by many other things, they may help you along but aren't the end all - nor was I suggesting this. Training and diet are placed far above supplements - but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try em. As long as there is trust in the developer. I've never been satisfied by companies who have rushed out GH boosters - I am certain someone is getting it right somewhere - just perfectin' it as we speak.

As far as GH being expensive -- if you want to get the real deal of anything - isn't it all quite expensive???
blush.gif
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (timmbuck2 @ July 16 2002,11:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2 questions/comments:

1. Biotest's MD6 and T2 Pro? I find the combo cuts the appetite and carb cravings, and little to no ephedrine buzz. Anyone else?

2. What about the new study showing the negative effects of caffiene on insulin sensitivity? I cut caffiene from my carb intake and I do notice less of an effect of the carbs. Any thoughts?

Timm[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I felt bad by skipping over this guy's post in replying so I will throw a comment in because I have used the supps he mentions and read something interesting about his #2 on this forum.

1. I like the original T2 a hell of a lot better but I think T2 Pro is a solid design. I don't get a buzz at all with MD6,.... but it seems sometimes the Tyrosine (or something) of their Power Drive can jack me up on occasion. And I am not certain anything in T2 Pro should have ever given that kinda response anyway.

2. I believe it was &quot;=w=&quot; or someone on here that posted something I thought was incredibly true. T-mag only posted an article featuring John B. showing a study suggesting this after the ending sales of MD6. That is pure coincidental and a big props for making this connection to him.

Just my thoughts- how much of an effect were reported in the &quot;actual study?&quot; Just curious if you know...it is interesting you have felt less of an effect on the carbs - but how long have you cut it and how long did it take before noticing the effects?
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (mass maniac @ July 16 2002,12:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1.  I like the original T2 a hell of a lot better but I think T2 Pro is a solid design.  I don't get a buzz at all with MD6,.... but it seems sometimes the Tyrosine (or something) of their Power Drive can jack me up on occasion.  And I am not certain anything in T2 Pro should have ever given that kinda response anyway.

2.  I believe it was &quot;=w=&quot; or someone on here that posted something I thought was incredibly true.  T-mag only posted an article featuring John B. showing a study suggesting this after the ending sales of MD6.  That is pure coincidental and a big props for making this connection to him.

Just my thoughts- how much of an effect were reported in the &quot;actual study?&quot;  Just curious if you know...it is interesting you have felt less of an effect on the carbs - but how long have you cut it and how long did it take before noticing the effects?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Thanks for coming back and replying to me, too. :)

1. I never expected a buzz or anything from T2, but taken with MD6 seemed to strengthen the effect slightly. I was not even aware they had stopped selling MD6. What was the reason?

Not sure how much effect in the actual study, I will see what I can find.

The effects I noticed were just less of a typical carb response...I usually react to carbs with sleepiness, low energy, etc. When I have seperated the carbs from the caffiene I seem to have steady energy levels and no blood sugar rebounds. Just anecdotal, but enough for me to cut out the caffiene in the morning for now. It would explain whay someone like me who already has impaired insulin sensitivity would have such a hard time with any diet other than low carbs. The only mention of the study is that it was at University of Guelph in Ontario, Canada.

Thanks!!

Timm

PS-another study I read about somewhere (not t-mag) regarding calcium...double-blind study with the calcium taking group reporting more fat loss....interesting...I will dig up more in that one as well
 
mass maniac

Thanks. I don't really know much about this GH boosters, so what you posted is informative and helpful. I was parrotting what I read/heard, trading info.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (timmbuck2 @ July 16 2002,2:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">PS-another study I read about somewhere (not t-mag) regarding calcium...double-blind study with the calcium taking group reporting more fat loss....interesting...I will dig up more in that one as well[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Wasn't this the study that they weren't looking for it at all (weight loss I mean) -- &gt; in fact, something totally different - but found a semi-correlation. The thing with this particular study is I think it was actual dairy products and some people translated that into calcium. Not sure and I would absolutely love any info anyone could find to clarify this!
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (virtualcyber @ July 16 2002,4:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">mass maniac

Thanks.  I don't really know much about this GH boosters, so what you posted is informative and helpful.  I was parrotting what I read/heard, trading info.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
hey no prob...

hell, we all read lots of sh*t and ultimately, we probably take half if not more of the crap we read - who the hell can remember it anyhow, right? :D
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (timmbuck2 @ July 16 2002,11:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1. Biotest's MD6 and T2 Pro? I find the combo cuts the appetite and carb cravings, and little to no ephedrine buzz. Anyone else?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Hey, you think this little to no ephedrine buzz is due to the fact that MD6 is standardized to only 10mg of ephedrine alkaloids, whereas most other formulations (incl. the jittery-feeling ones) are standardized to 20 mg???
 
I thought the lack of &quot;buzz&quot; was the l-norephedrine instead of ephedrine...I have taken 2 at once with no shakiness...

no matter, since MD6 is gone...I guess they got scared from all the anti-ephedrine hype in the news
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (timmbuck2 @ July 18 2002,09:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I thought the lack of &quot;buzz&quot; was the l-norephedrine instead of ephedrine...I have taken 2 at once with no shakiness...

no matter, since MD6 is gone...I guess they got scared from all the anti-ephedrine hype in the news[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
l-norephedrine??? Oh, did you get the very first edition of MD6 - are they still hanging around somewhere??? I think the protein factory has some of the original still, but the second version used an ephedra sinica extract.

Biotest's claim to your second comment was FDA pressure and it &quot;wasn't worth it&quot; - yeah not worth the little profit made on a supplement like that, I guess.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Ribose - usually worthless (research shows nuttin), some rare people get somehting out of it
Click to expand...
I am looking for more info (research and personal experiences)
with this product Ribose (it is entering polish markt and I would like to know more)
 
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