eating carbs and fats together?

I

imported_ejones

Guest
i've read before that eating carbs and fat together is bad b/c the fat has a better chance as being stored as fat. i've also read that this is a myth and it doesn't matter if you eat them together. what's fact and what's fiction?
 
Dear ejones,

The most important thing is total calories - these will decide if you gain or lose weight. After we have taken care of that, then we might want to play with macronutrient ratios for something of a tweak.

In some instances, it is advantages to have your fat with carbs e.g. when taking EFAs and CLA, you should take these with carbs so they are less likely to be metabolized by the liver as the liver is preoccupied with metabolizing the carbs.

Also, taking fat with carbs can have a GI lowering effect on the carbs. Apparently, taking a mixed meal will lower the GI by 50% or so.

Fact - too much carbs with fat is the surefire way to layer-on the lard. Too much of anything will eventually lead to fat gain. Fallacy - fat with carbs will make you fat. This just isn't true and must be viewed in context.

Godspeed, and happy HSTing :)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ejones @ Oct. 23 2003,12:21)]i've read before that eating carbs and fat together is bad b/c the fat has a better chance as being stored as fat. i've also read that this is a myth and it doesn't matter if you eat them together. what's fact and what's fiction?
also fat doesn't need insulin to store. i think the name is "de novo lipogensis." although this wouldn't need to happen, you body could just switch to burning fat after a fat meal, and burning carbs after a carb meal, and depending on surplus/deficit, using stored reserves.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (spartacus @ Oct. 23 2003,6:05)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ejones @ Oct. 23 2003,12:21)]i've read before that eating carbs and fat together is bad b/c the fat has a better chance as being stored as fat. i've also read that this is a myth and it doesn't matter if you eat them together. what's fact and what's fiction?
also fat doesn't need insulin to store. i think the name is "de novo lipogensis." although this wouldn't need to happen, you body could just switch to burning fat after a fat meal, and burning carbs after a carb meal, and depending on surplus/deficit, using stored reserves.
De Novo Lipogenesis is the process that stores carbs as fat in our bodies.


In the end it's pretty much calories in versus calories out, it doesn't matter what you mix with what.
 
thanks for the replies. i guess i won't worry about it too much.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Younglifter14 @ Oct. 24 2003,9:12)]not really fats and carbs together will make you "fatter"... more like high gi carbs and saturated fats... :)
Nope, still just calories in the end
 
I've heard Aaron say that before, it just comes down to calories in versus calories out. My only problem with that is hypothetically lets say my maintenence is 2000 calories to make the math easy. Lets say I eat 1000 calories all day, then before i go to bed i kill a whole <insert favorite pie here> pie having lets just say 800 calories. I just cant see HOW one would still lose fat??!! thats my only arguement against the cal in/cal out theory. It seems to me that if you eat 100 grams of high GI carbs, then go take a nap, all of those carbs would turn to fat via insulin, regardless if you were in a calorie deficit for the day. Appartently my thinking is wrong, which is ok with me, just as long as someone has a study to back it up so hopefully it can be explained. I'm presently cutting, and i do try to the best of my ability to follow Berardi's combinations of pro+fat OR pro+carbs. Do i pay attention to how many calories in/out? of course, only a fool wouldnt when dieting, but there has to be other factors (like my pie example).
 
Dear drivethroughguy,

Good point. Again, calorie flow (if it can be compared to cash flow...) must be viewed in context. If we decided to dwelve into detail, we must bear in mind how a calorie deficit can or should be created.

Starving the whole day then having 800 calories surely, isn't the best way to go. I am viewing this in the context of getting gastric pain, ulcers, blood sugar swings apart from its nitrogen retentive effect. Then again, you might wish to do a search on the Caveman diet (or something like that...) where it is recommended that only one or two large protein meals per day, and judge its merit for yourself.

I feel that taking protein in varying bolus amounts might perhaps, have some merit as there is a parallel logic for that found in protein-pulse feeding studies. But, from memory, such protein-pulse feeding studies were performed on old, sedentary folk which begs the question: any protein taken in any way for this category of people will probably provide some therapeutic effect anyhow....

Coming from a food-combining perspective, I've read before that no meal should be carbs alone, and even if the meal is mixed, it should not exceed 400 calories if not insulin levels will skyrocket. This sounds odd really, because we do know protein foods are insulinogenic (do a search on the Insulin Index for more info on this), and also, the assimilation of 400 calories must surely be dependent on meal type (solid vs liquid) and many other things.

Out of all this, what we must be concerned with is that, if one's muscle and liver glycogen levels are full, and assuming all other glucose-based energetic needs are being met, taking carbs over and above the needs that have been met at that point will lead to mass gain. Such mass can be muscle and/or fat, usually both.

Now, if one were to ingest 100gm glucose and take a nap, such glucose could end up as fat only if the person was in caloric excess anyhow. We are assuming that a person in caloric excess has full liver and glycogen stores and by this token, has no need for any incoming glucose. And we are also assuming that a person in calorie deficit has depleted liver and muscle glycogen.

Such assumptions can be wrong though, because if I ate 200 calories below maintenance, say, 1800 calories, on a non-training, mentally relaxed day, but it all came from carbs, am I glycogen depleted? Of course not. But would I be protein-starved? Very likely, yes. We must also bear in mind that apart from levels of glycogen, the enzymes and GLUT transporters can face saturation. All else being equal, this begs the question of how much and how soon the carbs are ingested. If I were in calorie deficit, and drank 200gm of glucose in solution, my glycogen synthesizing enzymes will be overwhelmed. My GLUT transporters for my liver could be overwhelmed (from memory their km is 12-20 mmol or something along those lines....) which results in a glucose spillover into my blood, again, possibly overwhelming the GLUT transporters on my muscle (with a km of 4 mmol perhaps). And thus, even if liver and muscle glycogen is depleted, such overwhelming of the GLUT transporters and glycogen-synthesizing enzymes can and usually means that the excess glucose on a per unit time basis gets stored as fat.

And thus, even if the most important thing is calorie flow, other important things would be meal size and timing. Meal combining has merit too, because studies have shown synergistic anabolic effects when protein and carbs are taken together. So you are right to say that it is more than just calorie flow that matters.

A final note on Berardi's food combining thingy - post-meal insulin from a carb meal might still be around when ingesting your protein-fat meal. Furthermore, it is definitely wrong to say that protein is not insulinogenic. So I'd take Berardi's info, and perhaps, anyone else's, with a pinch of salt, if diet permits :D

Godspeed, and happy HSTing :)
 
Dianabol,
I thank you for that AWESOME post. wow...i am now thinking about diet more so than i ever have before to be honest. I didnt think about glycogen/liver stores and carbs only turning to fatwhen there is no need for them So basically ignore food combinations, as long as your getting enough protein. Eat plenty of meals a day (this is IMO) and time them properly. Could it be considered that when you wake in the morning, your calories from carbs are sort of "in the hole" in otherwords your in the negative because your stores are empty/low. Lets say for breakfast you ingest a bunch of carbs to fill your stores then one shouldnt ingest anymore carbs until your stores have been partially depleted correct?(otherwise the extra carbs would be turned into fat)
ive never been one to go on a no carb diet, but rather a controlled carb diet. After reading your post i do think i need to take in more, as i only have carbs pre/post w/o, and then hour after my post w/o shake (oatmeal). Then half way through the day i have a small carb meal (~36 grams but 12g fiber, so ~24 net) to keep me going and thats it, besides the carbs in nuts, lettuce, cheese, which aren't many. I guess i'm just in a "diet crisis" haha...where i dont know how carbs should be used and when i need them etc. It is a little comforting to know its cal in/out for the most part now. But why then are we told to eat low GI carbs (besides pre/post w/o) all the time? if its mostly cal in/out the GI shouldnt matter eh? sorry to further drag on the topic, and i dont want my questions to overshadow your again awesome post. Just wanna fully understand this diet stuff :) thanks again, hopefully i didnt stump anyone this time
And BTW i see how my example is flawed about starving all day then scarfing down 800 cal, i would never do that but to illistrate the point i set that as the example.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (thedrivethruguy @ Oct. 24 2003,1:38)]I've heard Aaron say that before, it just comes down to calories in versus calories out. My only problem with that is hypothetically lets say my maintenence is 2000 calories to make the math easy. Lets say I eat 1000 calories all day, then before i go to bed i kill a whole <insert favorite pie here> pie having lets just say 800 calories. I just cant see HOW one would still lose fat??!! thats my only arguement against the cal in/cal out theory.
Why? or are you one of these people who think that the body will shut down when sleeping? ;)

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]It seems to me that if you eat 100 grams of high GI carbs, then go take a nap, all of those carbs would turn to fat via insulin, regardless if you were in a calorie deficit for the day.
Sure, after a high GI meal (well basically high sugar content, there will be increased lipogenesis from carbs. But, its not the shorterm 'fat production' that matters anything. Its the overall fat balance thruout the day. if you make 10g of fat here, and use 50g of fat there, you are still going backwards. Same as with a large meal at night. Even if you produced a few g of fat from the large meal prior to bed, if your eating less calories during the day, you will oxidse more. which creates a negative fat balance. Which is exactly what research on large morning meals vs large evening meals showed.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Appartently my thinking is wrong, which is ok with me, just as long as someone has a study to back it up so hopefully it can be explained.
I have, but Im not looking in my box :) But dont worry, it makes a lot of sense when you look at it. Your not doing anything at night, of course it should make you fat (well it will if you eat too much :)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I'm presently cutting, and i do try to the best of my ability to follow Berardi's combinations of pro+fat OR pro+carbs. Do i pay attention to how many calories in/out? of course, only a fool wouldnt when dieting, but there has to be other factors (like my pie example).
Even if your on Berardis food combinations, you have to track calories. If a pure high carb/low fat diet relies on reducing calories to loose fat, and a low carb high fat diet requires lowered calories to loose fat, how is a mixed diet like the food combos gonna get on :)
*however* once a person gets extremely lean (any figure well below their set point) it will require a fair bit of additional tweaking. And due to natural variability, some people go better on low carb, some on low carb, and some may do better food combining.

Ah
 
haha aaron to the rescue
laugh.gif

thanks.. and i'm not really lean so i wont worry about the additional tweaking, which i have been for this past cycle (just finished 10s) I've been trying to determine what works for me, low carb, moderate carb, high carb, and basically obsessing over it..i can see now why i'm not getting results i want, i'm too concerned with the macronutrient breakdown than overall calories... so for now i'll just forget it, as long as i get enough protein and count the calories i should lean up a bit. So small meal before bed consisting of preferably a "slow" protein and maybe some fat, is that ideal? thanks guys again for all your responses.
 
Dear drivethroughguy,

To reply in specific: "But why then are we told to eat low GI carbs (besides pre/post w/o) all the time? if its mostly cal in/out the GI shouldnt matter eh? sorry to further drag on the topic, and i dont want my questions to overshadow your again awesome post."

>>>>>>> This post is fun - no drag at all. The pleasure really is mine :) The recommendation for eating low GI carbs perhaps, stems from the fact that for those who are less insulin sensitive than the average, taking carbs high in GI can cause the pancreas to overwork. Eventually, the pancreas could shut down from such overwork or perhaps, suffer other pathology. This is perhaps a very simplistic view but in essence this is what could happen. Lost of the pancreas means Type I diabetes. All else being equal, it is preferred that carbs are low in GI for gradual, stable rises in blood sugar. This places less strain on the pancreas but also, reduces likelihood of overwhelming a finite number of enzymes and GLUT transporters in liver and muscle.

We must bear in mind the weaknesses of the GI though. The GI is based on a pre-determined amount of carbohydrate serving for a given food and eaten alone in certain clinical conditions. In real life, such conditions are unlikely to happen based on actual serving size, meal combination etc. But knowing the GI (and more importantly, II) of a food is good to know. Knowing which carbs are fast and slow is similar to knowing which protein is fast or slow - at different moments such carbs/proteins have different applications.

So pre/post-workout, we want to maximize anabolic activity and this is well accomplished with taking a fast carb (i.e. High GI carb) plus a fast protein (e.g. Primer). The insulin spike from this can help increase uptake of nutrients by muscle. Post-workout, we want to maintain a high level of substrate influx and this is accomplished with a combination of high and low GI carbs plus a slower protein (e.g. Driver), and/or the consumption of a solid meal.

Perhaps, from this we can conclude that when we take fast proteins, we take fast carbs, and when we take slow carbs we take slow proteins.

Godspeed, and happy HSTing :)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] so for now i'll just forget it, as long as i get enough protein and count the calories i should lean up a bit. So small meal before bed consisting of preferably a "slow" protein and maybe some fat, is that ideal? thanks guys again for all your responses.

wise plan i think, just dont forget to get your EFAs too and dont cut all saturated fats.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The recommendation for eating low GI carbs perhaps, stems from the fact that for those who are less insulin sensitive than the average, taking carbs high in GI can cause the pancreas to overwork
While people like to claim this, and like to claim that high sugar = diabetes, it doesnt. Well not from the available research. The main causative factors are excessive energy (getting fat), and lack of physical activity (also genetics but thats another arguement).
Sure excessive High GI carbs can cuase a high workload on the pancreas, but so can a lot of low gI (as in same glycemic load). But thats like claiming eating lots of protien ruins your kidneys due to making it work harder.
Also think of endurance atheltes that are eating 8-10g/kg carbs/day, with great insulin sensitivity :)
The main reasn to eat low GI carbs over high GI, is 1) nutrients (vits/min/fibre/phytonutrients) - low energy density (which helps toward appetite control.). A high GI diet will potentially make you hungrier, but wont nessecarily make you fatter than a low GI diet.
I like the basic system of
1) set cals
2) set protein (1.8g/kg or ~1g/kg)
3) tkae in adequate fat (~1g/kg total) and get in adequate carbs (2g/kg- if you dont want low carb)
4) Make up the remainder how you like, protein (extra sateity maybe), carbs (feel better :)) or fats (monos mainly + some polys)
(yes it is similar to lyles basic set up)
 
Thanks guys, my mom is type 2 diabetic, dont know how different that is from type 1 but i know she does NOT have to get a shot everyday (think they are insulin shots, b/c there pancreas as you guys noted stops producing it)
Also aaron when you said
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]2) set protein (1.8g/kg or ~1g/kg)
did you mean 1g/pound? just curious cause you did say OR, and jumping from 1 to 1.8 g per kilo seems like a wide range. I set mine at ~1g/pound, with fats @ around 100g a day leaving ~200g carbs.
 
yes, I meant 1g/lb
The actual figure is 0.8g or thereabouts, depends on what paper you look at , but 1g/lb covers it.

Im living in a civilised (read 'metric') country, so converting everything leads to errors :)
 
Accordng to Lyle, De novo lipogenesis only happens under most etreme conditions:
a. 700-900 g carbs/day for many days
b. diets with <10% dietary fat content
under normal dietary conditions, it is a quantitatively irrelevant pathway.Though glycogen repletion in ur muscles and liver triggers DNP, it rarely happens under normal dietary conditions.
:) Anoop
 
While lyles right there are several conditions that cause more DNL to take place, is if you take in a diet high in simple sugars (glucose) rather than a more 'complex carb'. a sugar diet will induce DNL quicker than a 'low gi' diet.
Of course, the only time when it matters is on a hypercaloric diet, and even then it doesnt lead to additional weight gain :)
 
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