Cutting Diet?
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TunnelRat
Active Member
You might try Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss Diet. It's been working for me without much difficulty.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-rapid-fat-loss-handbook
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-rapid-fat-loss-handbook
TunnelRat
Active Member
I've been on Lyle's diet since January 3. Since then I've set new Personal Bests in my Front Squat and Back Squat. Today I'm planning to set another in my Deadlift. Friday I intend to set another in my Pull-up.
Have I lost much muscle mass so far? Not noticeably so.
I have done the psmf diet before as well. It can be hell depending on how you do it. I like to use it to kick off a diet sometimes. Obviously the lower your bodyfat gets, the greater the chance you can lose muscle mass. You will lose some lean mass for sure, no doubt, since that is unavoidable, but if you keep the protein high as TR recommended somewhere around here (I can't remember where) then you can definitely minimize it. It can bring pretty fast results if you stick to it though. I would recommend using it only until you get below 10% bodyfat. Once you start to get below 10%, I would switch to UD2.0 or another similar diet.
I would also recommend looking into Intermittent Fasting. IF is pretty popular lately and for good reason - you get to feast every day, which makes the diet much more bearable, and it works. In fact, IF is almost ideally suited for HST.
Just remember that you will need to make some modifications to your HST routine before beginning a diet. Cutting out the 15s completely, for instance, extending the 5s to at least four weeks but preferrably six weeks and removing the SD period are the main modifications I would make to HST when cutting. If you find yourself beginning to burnout then you can SD for 9 days however you will want to raise calories up to whatever your current maintenance level is at that point in time, then drop calories back down once you begin training again.
I would also recommend looking into Intermittent Fasting. IF is pretty popular lately and for good reason - you get to feast every day, which makes the diet much more bearable, and it works. In fact, IF is almost ideally suited for HST.
Just remember that you will need to make some modifications to your HST routine before beginning a diet. Cutting out the 15s completely, for instance, extending the 5s to at least four weeks but preferrably six weeks and removing the SD period are the main modifications I would make to HST when cutting. If you find yourself beginning to burnout then you can SD for 9 days however you will want to raise calories up to whatever your current maintenance level is at that point in time, then drop calories back down once you begin training again.
whistledixie
New Member
Hey, Totentanz - I have read up a bit on IF and thought about trying it out some time. I'm already pretty low bf, but in the weeks leading up to a beach trip I might want to drop down a little more to 'jack teh abz'.
Of all the strategies for IF, I think the 16 hour fast - 8 hour feed would work best for me.
Besides the 16hr/8hr schedule - what are other, if any, guidelines one should follow for IF?
I've read that the 1st meal should be biggest and taper down the calories and carbs as you reach the end of the 8 hour feed.
And you should try to eat lower cals and carbs on non-training days.
Leangains seems to also suggest that IFers still eat clean and keep track of calories.
And I'd definitely not train fasted without taking some BCAA or EAA prior to.
Any additional suggestions would be really awesome.
Sorry I didn't reply earlier. Mainly for a successful IF run, I find it almost necessary to use an EC stack during the fast to blunt appetite. If you don't have much of a problem with appetite, then you might be able to get away without it. My maintenance is around 3500 so fasting during the day can be difficult for me. Your mileage may vary... also it helps with not feeling tired during the fast.
You seem to have most of the bullet points. It is recommended to break the fast with a preworkout shake or small meal prior to the workout. However, some of done fasted workouts as well and some even have reported that they find their performance improved somehow during the fasted workouts. That doesn't apply with me... I have to get some carbs prior to workout or my strength just isn't the same. I would recommend a small preworkout drink with some stimulants or whatever you normally take prior to workout. Sorry, I can't remember what your choice for preworkout was, but I'm sure whatever it is should work. Then after the workout, it's feast time.
It's also important to make sure to manage your rest times during your workout and your volume so that you can eat after the workout. You only have up to 8 hours to get all your calories in so don't do a routine that will leave you dizzy and feeling nauseous afterward because that makes it hard to get in enough food.
I recommend 1.5 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight minimum on workout days.
Cardio on non-lifting days is a good idea. I prefer interval training since that can raise protein synthesis rather than just burning calories, which is preferable during the feeding time. I try to make sure that I am only ever feeding during the 24 hour window of increased protein synthesis (this window could be up to 36 hours but research suggests that it is shortened in trained individuals so to be safe I assume 24 hours instead of 36...) As a result, sometimes I would change the fasting intervals a bit, but still keep my feeding to only 8 hours out of a 24 hour day. So if I lift today at 5 pm, I feed until bed time, then I fast from then until I wake up. I feed during the 8 hours that lead up to the 24 hour mark after my workout, then start fasting until my next workout. So a few times a week I will have a 24 hour fasting period. I don't know if this is making a lot of sense the way I am saying it, but basically it ends up as a 24 hour fast, 8 hour feed, 8 hour fast, 8 hour feed, 24 hour fast. That works really well for me when I am doing IF.
I would recommend experimenting with it a bit if you are interested and see how it goes. I also tried it for bulking before but due to my very high maintenance calorie requirements, it was too difficult to get enough food in within the feeding period.
You seem to have most of the bullet points. It is recommended to break the fast with a preworkout shake or small meal prior to the workout. However, some of done fasted workouts as well and some even have reported that they find their performance improved somehow during the fasted workouts. That doesn't apply with me... I have to get some carbs prior to workout or my strength just isn't the same. I would recommend a small preworkout drink with some stimulants or whatever you normally take prior to workout. Sorry, I can't remember what your choice for preworkout was, but I'm sure whatever it is should work. Then after the workout, it's feast time.
It's also important to make sure to manage your rest times during your workout and your volume so that you can eat after the workout. You only have up to 8 hours to get all your calories in so don't do a routine that will leave you dizzy and feeling nauseous afterward because that makes it hard to get in enough food.
I recommend 1.5 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight minimum on workout days.
Cardio on non-lifting days is a good idea. I prefer interval training since that can raise protein synthesis rather than just burning calories, which is preferable during the feeding time. I try to make sure that I am only ever feeding during the 24 hour window of increased protein synthesis (this window could be up to 36 hours but research suggests that it is shortened in trained individuals so to be safe I assume 24 hours instead of 36...) As a result, sometimes I would change the fasting intervals a bit, but still keep my feeding to only 8 hours out of a 24 hour day. So if I lift today at 5 pm, I feed until bed time, then I fast from then until I wake up. I feed during the 8 hours that lead up to the 24 hour mark after my workout, then start fasting until my next workout. So a few times a week I will have a 24 hour fasting period. I don't know if this is making a lot of sense the way I am saying it, but basically it ends up as a 24 hour fast, 8 hour feed, 8 hour fast, 8 hour feed, 24 hour fast. That works really well for me when I am doing IF.
I would recommend experimenting with it a bit if you are interested and see how it goes. I also tried it for bulking before but due to my very high maintenance calorie requirements, it was too difficult to get enough food in within the feeding period.
Brixtonian
Active Member
Totentanz,
I have also just started on the IF diet. I like what you are doing with regards to the varied fasting times. Unfortunately, I train in the morning. Usually around 10am (after getting up at about 7am - damn kids!) and then work late, so I'm not sure how I could do it the way you do, as I would need to feed again in the middle of the night?
I am also struggling a bit with my workouts, as I train after about 13hrs fasting. I do take BCAA pre and immediately post w/o, and then feed from 1pm, but I am noticing a bit of fatigue in the gym? Do you recommend a stimulant - ie; creatine/taurine type pre workout drink? Wouldnt that affect my fast?
I am currently about 268lb @ 20/25% bf, so - not that I want to at this time - if I wanted to bulk on this diet, as you say, that would mean a shed load of calories in that 8 hr feeding. But, as a lifestyle diet, it seems to be working quite well.
.......Its just the late night hunger pains!
Cheers
Brix
I have also just started on the IF diet. I like what you are doing with regards to the varied fasting times. Unfortunately, I train in the morning. Usually around 10am (after getting up at about 7am - damn kids!) and then work late, so I'm not sure how I could do it the way you do, as I would need to feed again in the middle of the night?
I am also struggling a bit with my workouts, as I train after about 13hrs fasting. I do take BCAA pre and immediately post w/o, and then feed from 1pm, but I am noticing a bit of fatigue in the gym? Do you recommend a stimulant - ie; creatine/taurine type pre workout drink? Wouldnt that affect my fast?
I am currently about 268lb @ 20/25% bf, so - not that I want to at this time - if I wanted to bulk on this diet, as you say, that would mean a shed load of calories in that 8 hr feeding. But, as a lifestyle diet, it seems to be working quite well.
.......Its just the late night hunger pains!
Cheers
Brix
I always end the fast about 15 minutes to maybe 30 minutes prior to my workout with a carb containing stimulant drink prior to workout. That allows me to have a good workout still. That close to the workout, it shouldn't affect fat loss much, if at all. You could also just take some caffeine pills prior to the workout so you aren't breaking your fast until after your workout, assuming caffeine works well for you. You can also try combining the caffeine with either yohimbine or tyrosine, both combined with caffeine can give a pretty good boost to a workout.
With your setup, you would basically feed from 10am til 6 pm right? Then if you followed my suggestion then yes, you'd basically have to get up around 2 am to start eating... so I wouldn't recommend doing it that way. You can just stick to the standard 16/8 scheme and that would probably work pretty well for you. I mean, you could do it if you really wanted to. Wake up and take a big shake or something, then go back to sleep.
The late night hunger pains would definitely suck. With my setup, most days I am going to bed with a full stomach so it's fine for me, and fasting through the day is pretty easy for me usually. Obviously you can't use the EC stack to blunt hunger if you are fasting from later in the day through the night until morning.
With your setup, you would basically feed from 10am til 6 pm right? Then if you followed my suggestion then yes, you'd basically have to get up around 2 am to start eating... so I wouldn't recommend doing it that way. You can just stick to the standard 16/8 scheme and that would probably work pretty well for you. I mean, you could do it if you really wanted to. Wake up and take a big shake or something, then go back to sleep.
The late night hunger pains would definitely suck. With my setup, most days I am going to bed with a full stomach so it's fine for me, and fasting through the day is pretty easy for me usually. Obviously you can't use the EC stack to blunt hunger if you are fasting from later in the day through the night until morning.
Brixtonian
Active Member
Thanks.
I like what you're suggesting about ending my fast at 10am, but, like you, I like to go to bed on a full stomach (the morning hunger isnt too bad - I have a lot to do, apart from training, and I get by on two or three black coffees/espressos. Hence the 'lifestyle' aspect of the diet?) I occaisonally work a night shift, and thats the worst, fasting from 9pm, and not going to bed until about 6am! Then I AM hungry like never before!
I have tried the middle of the night feed - tying it in with the night feeds for my kids when they were younger... now I just get up to pee.... every hour! Darent risk a protein shake or I might as well just stay up all night next to the loo!
I used to take a pre workout stimulant containing AAKG, creatine, tyrosine, beta alanine, and guarana. It contained about 3g of carbs, 15cals, and no protein or fat. Do you think this would still be ok, as part of the fast? Though the leangains website recommendn BCAA/protein? Could I take both?
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Much appreciated, and good luck with your diet
Brix
I like what you're suggesting about ending my fast at 10am, but, like you, I like to go to bed on a full stomach (the morning hunger isnt too bad - I have a lot to do, apart from training, and I get by on two or three black coffees/espressos. Hence the 'lifestyle' aspect of the diet?) I occaisonally work a night shift, and thats the worst, fasting from 9pm, and not going to bed until about 6am! Then I AM hungry like never before!
I have tried the middle of the night feed - tying it in with the night feeds for my kids when they were younger... now I just get up to pee.... every hour! Darent risk a protein shake or I might as well just stay up all night next to the loo!
I used to take a pre workout stimulant containing AAKG, creatine, tyrosine, beta alanine, and guarana. It contained about 3g of carbs, 15cals, and no protein or fat. Do you think this would still be ok, as part of the fast? Though the leangains website recommendn BCAA/protein? Could I take both?
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Much appreciated, and good luck with your diet
Brix
You could take both or either or. I would just see which works best. If you just do the first one then you needn't even consider that to be breaking your fast as that is a neglible amount of calories. In that case, you could break your fast later on. It's not really a big deal if you don't break your fast with the workout. After all, you will be raising protein synthesis for at least 24 hours, hopefully. Definitely at least more than 8 hours. Not only that, but post-workout you will have a raise in metabolism and if you are still fasting then that could burn up some extra fat.
I don't think it's a problem if you have to shift your feeding window now and then either.
What time are you doing your feeding currently compared to when you workout?
I don't think it's a problem if you have to shift your feeding window now and then either.
What time are you doing your feeding currently compared to when you workout?
Brixtonian
Active Member
My concern is about training without taking some sort of protein pre. I have read a lot, on here, and on Lyle's forum, about the benefits of taking protein pre/during, and dont want to lose that, bearing in mind my last protein intake would have been about 12/13hrs previously.
I am only taking 15g of BCAA though. Before and another 15g immediately after. It just doesnt give me the 'buzz' or energy that a stimulant mix would. I do take a couple of espressos in the hours before training, so maybe that helps a bit? But, over the - many - years, of taking ECA stacks of various sorts, I seem to be a bit immune to just caffeine alone. I still take it as I understand that it does help with the fat burn (slightly increasing the metabolism?)
I am also trying to keep my feeding roughly around the same sort of time every day. Either 12-8, or 1-9.
I train at about 10am, so fast overnight, then 15g BCAA at 10am. Train for an hour (including warm up etc...) then another 15g BCAA at 11am, then feed at either 12pm or 1pm. Lots of carbs and protein... infact, lots!
I aim for around 320g of carbs and same of protein on training day. Fat is around 100g.
Non-training day I hit 320g protein, 200g carbs, and around the 100g of fat again.
I dont bulk, as I would be looking at stuffing 4500 or so cals down my throat, and in only 8 hrs, thats hard going!
I am only taking 15g of BCAA though. Before and another 15g immediately after. It just doesnt give me the 'buzz' or energy that a stimulant mix would. I do take a couple of espressos in the hours before training, so maybe that helps a bit? But, over the - many - years, of taking ECA stacks of various sorts, I seem to be a bit immune to just caffeine alone. I still take it as I understand that it does help with the fat burn (slightly increasing the metabolism?)
I am also trying to keep my feeding roughly around the same sort of time every day. Either 12-8, or 1-9.
I train at about 10am, so fast overnight, then 15g BCAA at 10am. Train for an hour (including warm up etc...) then another 15g BCAA at 11am, then feed at either 12pm or 1pm. Lots of carbs and protein... infact, lots!
I aim for around 320g of carbs and same of protein on training day. Fat is around 100g.
Non-training day I hit 320g protein, 200g carbs, and around the 100g of fat again.
I dont bulk, as I would be looking at stuffing 4500 or so cals down my throat, and in only 8 hrs, thats hard going!
I think the BCAAs would be sufficient. I recall reading somewhere that it would work? I don't know. I don't think that 25 g of protein would hurt the fast too much either. I mean if it's only protein that's only 100 calories anyway, and it's extremely unlikely to be converted into glucose or anything. Even if you take another 25 grams or more post, that's still not going to make much of an impact. Obviously there would be a bit of carbs or fats along with it, but I'm pretty sure the amounts would be negligible. I think it would be akin to doing a PSMF. Maybe someone else has done something similar with IF? I haven't been following Lyle's forum too closely for a while so I'm not sure what everyone has been doing with IF lately.
I know what you mean about the bulking. I have to eat 4500 - 5000 or more for bulking. Not possible during 8 hours unless you are constantly eating the whole time and maybe drinking tons of soft drinks along with it. Even then it's still going to be difficult. I also know what you mean about the resistance to caffeine. I find that adding in tyrosine seems to restore some of the effect of caffeine though it still doesn't give a big oomph like it used to. Might be worth a shot if you haven't tried it already.
I know what you mean about the bulking. I have to eat 4500 - 5000 or more for bulking. Not possible during 8 hours unless you are constantly eating the whole time and maybe drinking tons of soft drinks along with it. Even then it's still going to be difficult. I also know what you mean about the resistance to caffeine. I find that adding in tyrosine seems to restore some of the effect of caffeine though it still doesn't give a big oomph like it used to. Might be worth a shot if you haven't tried it already.
Brixtonian
Active Member
I read about the BCAA on the LeanGains site. Although they taste a bit grim, I am sticking with that, as opposed to the whey, purely to keep cals at a minimum on the fast - though I understand what you are saying about the low cals of the whey.
I may try adding the pre workout stim aswell, just to see how that goes - as it is only 15cals?
There are a lot of good things being said about IF on the internet at the moment, hence I thought I would give it a try. This is week 6 now - tied in with a HST cycle. Seems ok. I am certainly leaning up a bit and losing the belly (I'm around 22% bf or thereabouts)
Unfortunately, having just turned 40, I have found that my test levels have dropped - not enough to get treatment sadly - so it is a big struggle to get any sort of decent, noticeable results at the moment. Any little bit helps.
Thanks for your input, and hope this has helped anyone else out there trying, or wanting to try, IF.
Brix
I may try adding the pre workout stim aswell, just to see how that goes - as it is only 15cals?
There are a lot of good things being said about IF on the internet at the moment, hence I thought I would give it a try. This is week 6 now - tied in with a HST cycle. Seems ok. I am certainly leaning up a bit and losing the belly (I'm around 22% bf or thereabouts)
Unfortunately, having just turned 40, I have found that my test levels have dropped - not enough to get treatment sadly - so it is a big struggle to get any sort of decent, noticeable results at the moment. Any little bit helps.
Thanks for your input, and hope this has helped anyone else out there trying, or wanting to try, IF.
Brix
Yeah, declining test levels definitely make it more difficult. Too bad you don't live in a country where AAS are legal, heh... I think you should try the preworkout stim too. Even if it is 15 calories (which isn't much, but it's still not 0) I think that the calories are worth the improvement to your workout.
The main thing for IF that is attractive to me is primarily consuming calories during the time when protein synthesis is raised. Also, it is by far one of the easier diets to stick to. Definitely easier than doing UD2.0 or a PSMF.
The main thing for IF that is attractive to me is primarily consuming calories during the time when protein synthesis is raised. Also, it is by far one of the easier diets to stick to. Definitely easier than doing UD2.0 or a PSMF.
Stl_Lift
New Member
Why would you want to drop the 15's and extend the 5's when cutting? I'll be cutting next HST cycle (in 2 weeks) and its only my 2nd cylce so Im new to this. Thanks for the advice!
TunnelRat
Active Member
When you are cutting, you need to keep your protein intake high, and lift heavy. That helps prevent (or reduce) muscle loss.