Creatine

S

Spencer

New Member
OK guys, i hate to create a new thread just to discuss about creatine. But as with all things in bodybuilding science, theres alot of half truths and conflicting information out there.

Lets settle this once and for all.

1) Which is the most optimal way to take creatine? eg: load 20g a day for 5 days and go on a maintenance schedule of 5g a day or just take 5g from Day one? Keep in mind that u do not have to choose from these 2 methods. I wanna know the BEST method according to science.

2) It has been said that taking creatine with 50g protein and 50g carbs is just as effective for creatine uptake than taking with 75g of dextrose alone. That is assuming, creatine uptake is dependent on insulin. But i read an article on musclemonthly.com by Bryan somewhere that states creatine uptake is dedependent on sodium! What is all this about? Can someone explain this in detail?

3) Will cycling make creatine more effective, long term? Note that i didnt say necessary because i am only concerned about the optimal way. Heck, if being on creatine all the time is better, i will do it.

4) Tachyphylaxis. A condition whereby your body got used to a drug and steadily increasing doses were necessary just to elicit the same effect again. I was thinking, will this happen to supplements or even, FOOD? Will the constant bombardment of your system with the same orally ingested stimulus renders its powers therapeutically weakened or even ineffective?


Hope to see comments from everyone.

Regards
Spencer
 
Those are very good questions. I'll throw out my opinion and see if everybody agrees.

1&2) Its hard to say what is optimal. All I can say, is that if you "load" you fill up muscles faster than if you don't. However, in the end, you will still end up with as much creatine in muscle if you don't load, but it will take anywhere from 3-4 weeks to do so. Is faster better? Don't know.

We also know that if creatine is floating around during exercise, it will be taken up much better than when you take it at rest.

We also know that insulin, because of its effects on sodium retention, also "facilitates" creatine entry into cells.

So, putting it all together, whether you load or not, make sure to take creatine before exercise. And, it might further help to take it with something that will icnrease insulin levels, like a preworkout MRP.

3) There have been no studies to answer the question about creatine cycling. When considering the effects of creatine, I would guess that cycling would not be particularly beneficial, compared to just taking it all the time. Just my opinion though.

4) Tachyphylaxis does not really apply to creatine supplementaiton in a classical sense. Creatine doesn't really "push" any physiological system, like say, ephedrine or caffeine. I mean, I guess does "get used to" creatine and the response to oral intake is reduced by redicing the number and activity of creatine transporters. But this isn't really how the term tachyphyaxis is generally used.
 
I have read that completely dissolved creatine is absorbed much faster. You may want to dissolve your creatine in warm water (or warm juice,
crazy.gif
) prior to drinking it, as creatine tend to dissolve much better in warmer solution.
 
Some people like Dr. Serrano say not to take creatine before working out because it may cause cramping.  Any truth to that?
 
BTW,

Once and for all = Again and again, (in case anyone is confused about meaning of the phrase "Once and for all.")

I predict that there will be infinite number of "once and for all" threads on the following topics:

Once and for all ...

(1) what is the best creatine?
(2) what is the best protein?
(3) what are the best exercises for bicep (chest)?
(4) what are the best fat burners?
(5) how much carb to take post exercise?
(6) who had the bb physique of all times?
.
Spencer -- j/k :D
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (TommyGunn69 @ June 14 2002,10:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some people like Dr. Serrano say not to take creatine before working out because it may cause cramping.  Any truth to that?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I always take my creatine before training and have never had any cramping or even an upset stomach from it.
 
Same here. I've always taken it before lifting, and never had a problem.
 
Cramping generally results from dehydration, which creatine can cause.
Some people dont increase their water intake
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1&amp;2) Its hard to say what is optimal. All I can say, is that if you &quot;load&quot; you fill up muscles faster than if you don't. However, in the end, you will still end up with as much creatine in muscle if you don't load, but it will take anywhere from 3-4 weeks to do so. Is faster better? Don't know.

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Bryan, thanks for replying. I know the theory behind loading is by over-saturating the area surrounding the muscle the body's need for homeostasis will try to equalise the normal ratio of things and increase the amount within the muscle. And what is this thing about receptors downgrading? I have heard that by not loading, receptors downgrade just as fast as loading. So because u can get results faster by loading, it is the more effective way?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We also know that insulin, because of its effects on sodium retention, also &quot;facilitates&quot; creatine entry into cells.

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Bryan, i dont think u answered my question. So, is creatine (or any other nutrient) dependent on insulin or sodium? If it is sodium, the way to take to creatine would be with lots of salt?
laugh.gif
.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3) There have been no studies to answer the question about creatine cycling. When considering the effects of creatine, I would guess that cycling would not be particularly beneficial, compared to just taking it all the time. Just my opinion though.

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Again, this issue deals with the &quot;receptors downgrading&quot; thing. I was thinking, does creatine needs &quot;SD&quot;?
laugh.gif
. Whats the whole mechanism behind creatine transporters and uptake? I have heard things like, creatine shouldnt be taken with protein or individual amino acids because both compete for the calcium transport ion. Man, its getting more and more confused!
laugh.gif
laugh.gif




</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4) Tachyphylaxis does not really apply to creatine supplementaiton in a classical sense. Creatine doesn't really &quot;push&quot; any physiological system, like say, ephedrine or caffeine. I mean, I guess does &quot;get used to&quot; creatine and the response to oral intake is reduced by redicing the number and activity of creatine transporters. But this isn't really how the term tachyphyaxis is generally used.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Tachyphylaxis only apply to drugs, not food and supplements? This can also be confusing as in, caffeine is classified as a drug but it is also sold as a supplement.

Sorry Bryan, but i would appreciate if you could provide the lastest research on creatine, the mechanisms behind uptake and the BEST way to take it.

Thanks.
thumbs-up.gif


Regards
Spencer
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have read that completely dissolved creatine is absorbed much faster. You may want to dissolve your creatine in warm water (or warm juice, ) prior to drinking it, as creatine tend to dissolve much better in warmer solution.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah virtualcyber, I agree with this. Currently just dissolving my creatine in plain water or milk and try as i might, it seem very difficult to avoid the residue at the bottom of the glass. I drank it anyway and minutes later, i am off to the toilet because of a stomach upset.

I have got a question: is it possible that my creatine went down the toilet because of the stomach upset? To put it plainly: i drank my creatine and it came out of my ### straightaway?

Or creatine is a &quot;laxative&quot; in this sense? Hey, if this is so, we have found a way to cure constipation.
laugh.gif


</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW,

Once and for all = Again and again, (in case anyone is confused about meaning of the phrase &quot;Once and for all.&quot;)
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

haha, to me, Once and for all = for the last time
laugh.gif
. Maybe i got my meaning from &quot;Singlish&quot;. Heard of it? Its the unique way most Singaporeans speak English. The &quot;lahs&quot; and the &quot;lohs&quot;. I think most people here can identify this with Singapore.


On a more serious note, I have always thought taking creatine before exercise is more for strength (powerlifters) while taking it after exercise (bodybuilders) is more for recovery.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And what is this thing about receptors downgrading? I have heard that by not loading, receptors downgrade just as fast as loading.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

No. It's creatine transporters that gets downregulated once creatine stores are saturated. It doesn't really seem to matter, though - creatine stores stay saturated regardless at the maintenance dosage (3-5g/day) regardless.
 
Ok, let us bump this thread for the following question:

Does creatine need to be disoolved in solution before consumption? If not, does it goes down the drain (eventually) without being absorbed by the body?
 
On the www.cbass.com site, Clarence Bass notes that his first trial with creatine, using an inexpensive, coarse-grain creatine, caused routine stomache upset, but that his second trail, with a higher-quality fine-powdered creatine caused no upset.

I shopped for the best deal I could get on a &quot;decent name&quot; creatine in a large bottle, and I get no stomache upset consuming creatine &quot;sand&quot; with a little water.
 
Guess i gonna scream for anyone to hear me!
laugh.gif
laugh.gif


</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bryan, i dont think u answered my question. So, is creatine (or any other nutrient) dependent on insulin or sodium? If it is sodium, the way to take to creatine would be with lots of salt? .

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Again, this issue deals with the &quot;receptors downgrading&quot; thing. I was thinking, does creatine needs &quot;SD&quot;? . Whats the whole mechanism behind creatine transporters and uptake? I have heard things like, creatine shouldnt be taken with protein or individual amino acids because both compete for the calcium transport ion. Man, its getting more and more confused! [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have got a question: is it possible that my creatine went down the toilet because of the stomach upset? To put it plainly: i drank my creatine and it came out of my ### straightaway?

Or creatine is a &quot;laxative&quot; in this sense? Hey, if this is so, we have found a way to cure constipation.

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>


</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3) There have been no studies to answer the question about creatine cycling. When considering the effects of creatine, I would guess that cycling would not be particularly beneficial, compared to just taking it all the time. Just my opinion though.

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I thought theres an article &quot;Research Update&quot; on Thinkmuscle that has a study in it about cycling creatine?
 
(1) I dunno

(2) If I remember right (someone correct me), creatine absorption is facilitated by accompanying glucose intake. So, take it with juice. Especially grape juice.

(3) I don't think creatine is a laxative. You can take it straight. You can dissolve it befor edrinking it if you are afraid it will upset your bowels. (see above posts)

(4) I have read many views on cycline creatine. Some say do it, some say don't. Bryan himself seems to question the need for cycling creatine.
 
I'll try to put up an &quot;ultimate FAQ&quot; for creatine on the site. I'll include the references so that people can make their own judgments about what is &quot;best&quot; etc.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Spencer @ June 18 2002,11:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Again, this issue deals with the &quot;receptors downgrading&quot; thing. I was thinking, does creatine needs &quot;SD&quot;?  . Whats the whole mechanism behind creatine transporters and uptake? I have heard things like, creatine shouldnt be taken with protein or individual amino acids because both compete for the calcium transport ion. Man, its getting more and more confused!    [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I thought Blade answered this one perfectly. Creatine updake downgrades as your creatine stores maximize. When you're fully loaded, consuming a Kg of creatine/day won't help.

It seems unlikely, physiologicaly, that the change in creatine levels in the muscle itself would cause any sort of acclimation, which argues against cycling.

To many, any arguments about cycling focus more on what pathways/system in a muscle are trained when loaded on creatine vs. when not loaded. As creatine facilitates certain pathways, in theory, those pathways may get relatively under-trained well loaded on creatine.

That's a very broad unknown, though. The creatine itself probably keeps doing its job, and keeps your muscles bigger on water gain, too.
 
Thanks Bryan. i am sure we need that!
thumbs-up.gif


It would be even better if you could draw a conclusion from it at the end.
worship.gif


BTW, i heard that HSN is coming out with a creatine product and a MRP. Will the HSN product line be available in Singapore? I know that the product line is already available in USA through GNCs right?

There are GNCs (tons of them) over here too! I will be the first in line to try the HSN products if they ever make it here.
laugh.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top