Creatine and HST

Gesar

New Member
Hello, untill now I've been using only Protein..1 cycle of HST and no complaints so far. Now I wanted to try some creatine. Now for what I know Creatine gives you energey so you could lift more weight and increase muscle.

Now with HST you dont really go to failure and also on the 15 and 10 the weight are not really heavy... so..how creatine will work with HST?

TIA
 
I have almost completed the second week of my first HST cycle.
I also started using creatine on the first day of my cycle.
I was asking myself the same question you did, but I really feel the difference with the creatine:
It's like my muscles are not getting as tired with each repetition that I do, as they did before.

For example, I perform an exercise and the 10th repetition seems quite hard, but I can still reach 15 and I'm not even sure if I'm that close to failure...

I have actually decided that next week I will increase the weights a little bit more than what I intended to.

I found out my 15, 10 and 5RM before I was taking creatine, and with the creatine they are definitely higher.

It's important to mention that I am a vegeterian, so it is not surprising that I respond well to creatine.


If it will affect you in a similar manner, you will benefit from using it while training according to HST, because you will be able to lift heavier weights throughout your cycle and therefore the absolute load on your muscles will be higher.
It might seem like your "effort" isn't, but according to HST, unlike HIT, what counts for hypertrophy is the absolute load on the muscles and not your "percieved effort".
 
Hammer-Man,

I would have thought that instead of increasing your weights you could extend the length of your cycle. After all, if the weights you have calculated for your workouts are stimulating you to grow then why up them yet? Do a few more reps at each weight if need be but keep the progression the same. Then when you get to the end of the 5s just keep on increasing the load until you reach your new 5RMs. After that you still have a good two weeks of training at your new 5RMs (or continue to increase the load and do clustered reps or negs). I was able to extend my last cycle this way.

So if you find creatine is allowing you to get more reps at a particular load than expected, just do more reps but stop short of failure. That'll make you feel like you tried harder but still allow you to use your weight progression as planned. Just keep on incrementing at the end of the 5s until you reach your new 5RMs.
 
Lol, thanks for the advice.

The reason I can't extend my cycle is that my wife and I are expecting a baby and by the end of the cycle we should move to another city to be closer to our families.

But what I could do, is increase the weights more frequently. So far throghout my cycle I have increased the weights every other workout (on most exercises).

The reason I thought increasing the weights twice as much as I intended to when starting the 10s mesocycle, was that volume is about to be reduced more significantlly:
So far the volume has changed from 25 to 21 reps for most exercises.

Now I have decided that instead of slowly reducing the volume as weights are increased, I better keep the volume constant at 15 reps for the second half of the cycle.
So I thought I might go from 21 to 17 reps (10+7) when I begin my 10s, then gradually reduce it to 15 reps (10+5) by the end of the 10s, and then keep it constant at 15 reps throghout the 5s and negatives.

The thing is that changing the volume from 21 to 17 reps is quite a lot, so I thought I might compensate for that by adding more weight, so that on the first 10s workout I actually use the weights I was planning to use for my third 10s workout.
(between the first 10s and second 10s there's not much difference as I usually increase weights on every other workout.)

But after all I might just increase the weights more often.
Maybe I will increase it from my first 10s workout to the second, as well as from the second to the third.
Thanks again for the advice.
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Hammer-Man

Just interested to know.

Being a vegetarian how good are your gains?

What is your protein intake like?

I was considering eating hardly any meat and wondering how it would affect bbuilding.
 
Gesar

Creatine is a percursor of the glycogenic cycle to cut expnations very short.

It basically lends a phosphate to each step in the glycogenic cycle (cycle converts sugar [glycogen] to lactic acid, then another cycle picks up from ther for further conversion.

When each reaction occurs, ATP (Adenine tryphosphate) looses one Phosphate becoming ADP (diphopsphate), this is where creatine comes in lending an extra phsphate thus making this reaction happen faster or more efficient or both.

5 g of creatine per day seems to be the dose of choice as apparently the body cannot aborb more, it definitely helps.

As you can see hammer man as a better reaction because vegetarians do not have much creatine in their diet (major source is meat), so the result is much more evident, both strength and endurance will improve quite dramatically.

I take creatine normally and it does help as you seem to lift easier (with apparent less effort).
 
3 grams a day is enough and don´t bother with the loading for two weeks at 20 grams a day. The same results are achieved with 3 grams a day.

I would suggest that everyone interested in Creatine supplementation download and read the following it is a free rewiew of the Pharmacology of Creatine supplementation: http://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/cgi/reprint/53/2/161


Clinical Pharmacology of the Dietary Supplement Creatine Monohydrate
Adam M. Persky and Gayle A. Brazeau
Pharmacol. Rev., Jun 2001; 53: 161.
 
Pierre is right.. 3g/day is all you need... but it's pretty easy just to measure 5g. Anything more just gets wasted... and loading phases are bullshit.
 
Well, loading isn't bullshit it has it's merits especially when you are talking about a vegetarian who may have low levels to begin with.

The transporter mechanism used will only allow so much but this is based on several factors but mostly current levels.

Pierre, thanks for that, have you read Markus Wyss or Richard Kreider's info on creatine. Wyss has an exceptional review on Cr metabolism.
 
Good to know I was doing the loading phase for 3 days but I get some upset stomach. Thanks You help me a lot.
One more question on the container it says to take 5g before workout and 5g after workout. Do you guys do that?
 
To load or not is up to you, worse case, if you load, you will excrete more Crn and Cr, best case you will fill up the tank.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">One more question on the container it says to take 5g before workout and 5g after workout. Do you guys do that?</div>

Nope.. I just take 5g/day which is plenty for your body.
 
Pierre

Do you have any research regarding interference of creatine absorption when caffeine or related products are ingested at the same time?

I bought a 200 g bottle from Perc that says caffeine affects cell volumization, is this a fact?

he, he, he....I am sure you've guessed by now I am a bit of a coffee addict!
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I love coffee as well and imbibe quite abit of it.
as far as I know, caffeine has no effect on creatine absorption.
as creatine is similiar to some amino acids, there is some evidence that
creatine uptake may utilize, or augmented, by the same mechanisms.

I take 3 grams creatine with 3 grams amino acids plus a powder for cartilage, tendon and joint nutrition.

read that review I posted, most of the questions about creatine that are asked on this board are answered in that review.
 
Here's what I found from a few different sources:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">#6 BALANCE CREATINE WITH CAFFEINE
One study suggests that taking a lot of caffeine (at least three cups of coffee or about 400 mg) with creatine may hamper its performance-enhancing effects.

However, since both agents can increase athletic performance, the best advice is to use trial and error to find out what balance of the two works for you.

If you take creatine primarily for performance enhancement and you find that caffeine interferes with it, then avoid coffee, caffeine supplements and other caffeine sources, including certain soft drinks and cold remedies.

Otherwise, don't worry about it: You'll still get the cell-volumizing effect of creatine, which is equally if not more important to most bodybuilders. Caffeine was not found to interfere with muscle creatine loading. And, obviously, many bodybuilders regularly get a lot of caffeine from ephedrine-caffeine supplements, as well as from dietary sources without any perceived negative effects on the benefits of creatine.
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Creatine And Caffeine

The research regarding caffeine and creatine also deserves some discussion in light of the complicated research findings. When the notable 1996 study was conducted, see study reference below, the researchers actually thought that caffeine ingestion might enhance creatine uptake.

(Darn contradictory if you ask me)

During the 1996 study creatine and phosphocreatine levels increased in both dosage regimens; creatine, and creatine plus caffeine. However, only the creatine group experienced an improvement in muscle strength performance.

In both the 1996 and 2002 studies (43 &amp; 44), caffeine intake was very high for a 3 day period, 5 mg per kg of body weight, about 350 mg per day of caffeine intake.

Creatine aside, in these and other studies, caffeine intake has been shown to increase the muscle resting time during the muscle contraction cycle. Creatine actually decreases the muscle resting time, which is beneficial for strength athletes as this speeds-up the muscle contraction cycle.

During fast repetitive muscle contractions shorting of the muscle resting time from a previous contraction is critical to maximum force output during the next muscle contraction. Also, shortening muscle resting time may increase the number of actin-myosin activation cycles per unit of time and increase total muscle power output.

My general recommendations regarding caffeine consumption for strength athletes is to minimize and avoid caffeine intake during periods of training and competition. Ingest caffeine sparingly, only periodically, for one day at a time, with a few days in between the next ingestion; if you find that you need to consume it at all.

The aforementioned studies measured the effects of a single day of ingesting caffeine (referred to as acute caffeine intake), which did not adversely effect muscle strength performance; however, it did not improve performance significantly.

While we are on this subject, alcohol consumption also undermines your muscle building efforts. It actually interferes with protein synthesis. So during those important training and athletic season periods, it is best to avoid caffeine and alcohol intake. The thrill of competition should give you enough of a high.

As an aside, moderate caffeine use by endurance athletes has been shown to improve their performance significantly in most studies. Although, keep in mind that caffeine misuse and over consumption is counter productive.

Additionally, some sports governing organizations have limits on the levels of caffeine permitted. Check with your organization to make sure you don't get disqualified from being a caffeine drinker.
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Caffeine and Creatine Supplementation

Although caffeine has been shown to increase endurance time, further research shows it may actually blunt the effect of creatine, a popular and well-researched compound known for its consistent ergogenic effects. In a study evaluating the effect of pre-exercise caffeine ingestion on both creatine stores and high-intensity exercise performance, caffeine totally counteracted any effects of creatine supplementation.
</div>

(ah....ah 2/2 says no good, who the h... is one suppposed to believe)
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It was suggested that individuals who creatine load should refrain from caffeine-containing foods and beverages if positive effects are desired.
</div>
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I wouldn't worry about coffee and creatine. Most of the stuff on it doesn't say it impedes uptake, there are however some reports on reducing the ergogenic effect. Most of these are revolved on how it changes the relaxation time during contractions or how it changes torque development.

Several studies looking at osmoality of muscle cells don't show much of a loss due to caffeine if water balance remains.

Laslty when you read alot of the studies on monohydrate ingestion, guess what medium was used to disolve it.........tea or coffee

Read the paper Pierre put up and or read Wyss or Krieder.

You find the Wyss paper Here

and if you want the Kreider paper let me know, it's a little simpler to understand as it doesn't get into the mechanisms as much but reports well on the overall actions.
 
Thanks Dan

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Several studies looking at osmoality of muscle cells don't show much of a loss due to caffeine if water balance remains.
</div>

So the secret is to maintain the water balance, i.o.w. drink more? Keep the 2 litre per day ingestion?

Well it makes me feel better, but I must say I have started trying out to skip coffee altoghether, I really drink it pretty strong (4 - 5 teasponns in a mug - no milk at all) and often 2- 4 times per day!

You might as well post me the other paper (Kreider), I might as well be well iinformed.

Thanks... mate...once again!
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I use creatine for endurance purposes as it not only acts as a buffer during the buildup of Lactic Acid, but also increase the transport of ATP out of the mitochondria. I notice a BIG difference in my endurance during marathons when I am not on creatine.
 
<div>
(Fausto @ Mar. 15 2006,01:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks Dan

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Several studies looking at osmoality of muscle cells don't show much of a loss due to caffeine if water balance remains.
</div>

So the secret is to maintain the water balance, i.o.w. drink more? Keep the 2 litre per day ingestion?

Well it makes me feel better, but I must say I have started trying out to skip coffee altoghether, I really drink it pretty strong (4 - 5 teasponns in a mug - no milk at all) and often 2- 4 times per day!

You might as well post me the other paper (Kreider), I might as well be well iinformed.

Thanks... mate...once again!
tounge.gif
</div>
I'll give up my coffee cup when you pry it from my cold dead hands
biggrin.gif


I'll email the Kreider paper to you
 
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