CNS and muscle

Discussion in 'Basic Training Principles and Methods' started by naz, Aug 4, 2004.

  1. naz

    naz New Member

    Just another question here fellas....i'm not too sure about this but i was wondering about CNS fatigue and i just want to confirm my understanding. Say if you did do too much leg exercise which were isolations....say leg curls on monday and did an extreme amount[100 sets of [email protected] high intensity]. How does this effect your CNS? Will you be able to do bicep curls the next day? Is CNS fatigue no matter what bodypart you've overworked? or is it independant as in if you overtrained your leg it doesn't mean you wont be able to train your arms tomorrow....do you get what i'm asking?

    I ask because i see some ppl having push and pull days back to back like on mon and tue....some might say this is ok because they are not related hence their CNS ability is not linked. Some might say this isn;t ok because CNS is a whole body thing and not restricted to any muscle group.
    hope you guys understood that.

    Plus, during a workout session after doing your leg curls you feel like you can't do many more of them if you had to but if you moved on to the next bodypart then you'll be able to do alot of them fine. This tells me the limitation for the leg curls was lactic acid build up? am i right? if not pls explain. Thanx guys ;)
     
  2. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    Understand that when we are talking about the CNS we are talking about "fatigue". Everyone who has lifted a weight knows what fatigue is. Now, even though you are doing an isolation exercise, you are not isolating the nervous system. Your muscle is connected to your brain and several points inbetween.

    However, you are right in thinking that smaller muscle groups will effect the overall drain on teh nervous system differently. If I were to do finger curls with one finger, I certainly wouldn't experience as much systemic fatigue as doing leg curls or even bicep curls.

    How will doing 100 sets of 5s effect your CNS? It will make you very tired. So tired in fact that you won't be able to do it again with the same amount of weight for several days. You will find that youare not as strong. Why? Because the CNS is still recovering.

    You can train every day if you like. Nothing will happen with your CNS that you will not be totally aware of. If you are doing "too much" you will get so tired that you won't be able to continue training at that load and frequency. Once again, this will not happen without you knowing about it.

    Always remember that your CNS will adapt and improve just like muscle tissue. So, just because you got really tired the first week, doesn't mean you won't improve your performance the second week and so on, etc. Nothing stands still in the face of training.

    Lactic acid is not the limiting factor in muscle fatigue. Although some metabolic factors are involved short term (i.e. a few seconds), the primary factor in fatigue is the nervous system. The other factor is structural damage to the tissue which inhibts efficient contractile activity (Z-line and cell membrame disruptions).
     
  3. naz

    naz New Member

    So if a person was to do bicep curls to localized neural fatigue, this would mean that if he didn't do any other exercise, CNS stress overall would still remain somewhat low and would be able to recover for him to do the same exercise[10 sets of bicep curls ] tommorrow? I'm thinkin the localized neural fatigue will recover quicker as overall CNS fatigue is still low therefore recovery by tommorrow is possible?
     
  4. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    Well, it depends on the severity of fatigue that you cause. If you train to failure for 10 sets, it will take more than 24 hours to regain your strength. More like 5-7 days.

    Here is a picture of the recovery curve for muscular fatigue.
     
  5. naz

    naz New Member

    So if that is true then how is it that i see these articles recommending training just that specific bodypart everyday to bring it up?....Do you think train to localized neural fatigue[by the last set]? or less than that....if less....what is the limiting factor?[what do they stop to]
    Also a question about split routiners....they train a bodypart once/week.....does this mean during their sessions for that bodypart they look to go to localized neural fatigue by the last set?[or close to it]. If not then what is their limiting factor....what do they stop to?
     
  6. naz

    naz New Member

    anyone?
     
  7. 1. Look at who is writing the article

    2. If training to failure then they can not be recouping the CNS every day, as Bryan Points out. MVF and Joint Angle has been shown to be diminished with heavy weight sets for days post workout.

    3. As far as splits, it depends on which protocal there are implementing, if HIT yes they are probably going to failure, if conventional then no probably not.
     
  8. MrNasty

    MrNasty New Member

    Split huh? I'm curious ... if I wrkd out every othre day, training 2 different body parts on WO days and resting on my off days, how would this effect my CNS?

    For example:
    Day 1 Chest/Tri
    Day 2 Rest
    Day 3 Back/Bi
    Day 4 Rest
    Day 5 Shoulder/Traps
    Day 6 Rest
    Day 7 Legs
    Day 8 Rest
    Repeat & Start over.

    Or how about th same routine, but cardio on all off days besides day 8 (8 will be complete rest). That might cause a bit more fatigue to the system? Correct?
     
  9. naz

    naz New Member

    If that is so then what do the conventionals stop to? do they stop somewhere close to localized neural failure?....i mean this is acceptable isn't it? seeying as how they will only work that muscle again in 7 days time. That'll give them enough time to recover from the localized fatigue?
     
  10. Since Arnold was a keen proponent of conventional volume training, you might want to read his book.

    He explains his line of thought and training quite well, which was common in those days but, was refuted by many others, so you end up getting as many differing ideas as there are BB's.

    But only a small handful used any glimmerings of science and none as concisely or clearly as HST.
     
  11. naz

    naz New Member

    Thanx mate, i'll try to get the book and i think i know which one. But is that a yes? they went to localized failure or close to it?
     
  12. Not that I recall, he really doesn't mention going to failure, as currently is seen, he does mention using 70 to 80% RM with a multitude of sets.
     
  13. MrNasty

    MrNasty New Member

    ::BUMP::
     
  14. Here is one thing I think you are missing, even though you might be sparing the CNS with this type of split, which from what I gather you wish to do the opposite?, you are not keeping your hormone levels at their highest, plus you are diminishing frequency, so I am not sure why you would want to do this.

    Why would you want to induce CNS fatique anyway, it is not beneficial, except that your body can and will adapt to the stress, but you can also end up overtraining and getting illnesses or injuries, it does not make you grow more muscle tissue per say.

    Besides this is nothing new or different than what many many have done for years. If you are after a traditional conventional training routine then I suggest you go to BB.com and view some of those type of routines there. As far as HST there is no need or desire to reduce whole body frequency this low.
     
  15. FamilyGuy

    FamilyGuy New Member

    Naz,
    in Arnold's "Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding," he states that each set should be taken to muscular failure, which if you look at his routines of 20 sets per bodypart three times per week, it suggests that steroids are a magical fruit.
     
  16. naz

    naz New Member

    goodness...60 sets/week/bodypart? i see how this is very apropriate for naturals..lol
     
  17. MrNasty

    MrNasty New Member

    My goal is not to cause CNS fatigue. I was simply asking what kind f fatigue would be induced by such a split. I usually train in this manner during an AAS cycle. It allows me to load volume and recover fully due to the lack in frequency. Kinda of like family guy suggested wih Arnold's 20 set/body part work outs (which I feel is a little extreme, regardless of aas use). 6sets or "MAYBE" even 8/10 sets per body part while "ON" would suffice, IMO.

    In my example split (see previous post), each muscle would get worked every 7 days. 7 days is a long time to go without working a muscle, IMO. But with the increase in volume, these 7 days might be necessary, right?

    You are right in suggesting a more conventional program, this is not at all ment to be a HST cycle. My apologies for not making that more clear in the initial posts.

    Given all tha has been said, (aas use, increased volume) do you still feel this type of training unecessary or counter productive to growth??
     
  18. BoSox

    BoSox New Member

    I think you'd be better off using slightly less volume (or maybe a lot less) and much more frequency, especially if you're using gear.
     
  19. Heavy Duty dude

    Heavy Duty dude New Member

    Yeah it's always the same principles.. unless it works differently for people on gear. It is not impossible in fact since people on steroids grow because of testosterone, and not IGF-1.
     
  20. MrNasty

    MrNasty New Member

    You cannot increase volume and frequency at the same time. When volume goes up, frequency must come down - and visa versa. Other wise your at a higher risk of over training.

    For instance, HST is low volume (1 to 3 sets per exercises depending on rep count), thus the higher frequency. If HST allowed more than 1 to 3 sets per exercises, especially in full body routines, one could not work out everyday or any two days in a row. The muscle would not yet be recovered.

    In my suggested split, the volume is increased but more time between workouts is allowed for full muscle recovery. You even have off days in between workouts - every other day. Even with a high volume I dont see how one could over train. Add this with soem AAS, and to me, it seems you are sure to grow.

    Does this make sense, or am I just not getting something?
     

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