cla vs eca stack?
- Thread starter willie838
- Start date
Harry Mofo
New Member
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (willie838 @ April 30 2002,12:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i was wondering if bryan or anybody had the pros and cons of each or could make a recomendation....thanks[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
They're completely different things and (AFAIK) are not mutually exclusive.
They're completely different things and (AFAIK) are not mutually exclusive.
Here is a bit of info on CLA. Keep in mind that in order for CLA to be effective, moderate to high doses must be used. The reason for this is that CLA is preferentially oxidized for fuel, rather than stored peripherally.
CLA is a naturally occurring fatty acid found primarily in beef and dairy fats. The reason that it is found primarily in beef and dairy products is because CLA is formed from linoleic acid by bacteria in the gut of cows (or herbavors). The cows then absorb the CLA and it becomes incorporated into lipids in the cows, including milk lipids.
How does it work?
CLA increases fat oxidation.
(West, D. B., J. P. DeLany, P. M. Camet, F. Blohm, A. A. Truett, and J. A. Scimeca. Effects of conjugated linoleic acid on body fat and energy metabolism in the mouse. Am. J. Physiol. 275 (Regulatory Integrative Comp. Physiol. 44): R667-R672, 1998)
CLA has been shown to increase certain enzymes responsible for fatty acid beta-oxidation. This means that the body’s ability to burn fat goes up significantly with CLA supplementation.
Inhibition of triglyceride uptake into fat cells.
(Park, Y., K. J. Albright, W. Liu, J. M. Storkson, M. E. Cook, and M. W. Pariza. Effect of conjugated linoleic acid on body composition in mice. Lipids 32: 853-858, 1997)
The best way to get fat is to send the fat you eat straight to the fat cell to be stored. This is generally what happens when we eat fat, however CLA supplementation has been shown to decrease the enzyme necessary for fat cells to take up fat and triglycerides from the blood. This fat is then more apt to be taken up by muscle tissue where it can be burned for fuel. In fact, CLA also increases the muscles ability to burn fat as fuel as mentioned previously.
CLA increases insulin sensitivity
(Houseknecht, K. L., J. P. Vanden Heuvel, S. Y. Moya-Camarena, C. P. Portocarrero, L. W. Peck, K. P. Nickel, and M. A. Belury. Dietary conjugated linoleic acid normalizes impaired glucose tolerance in the Zucker diabetic fatty fa/fa rat. Biochem. Biophys. Res. Commun. 244: 678-682, 1998)
The reason CLA has been labeled a “partitioning agent” is because of its ability to shift the flow of nutrients away from fat tissue and towards muscle tissue. So you are starving the fat and feeding your muscle, the end result being an increase or maintenance of muscle and a reduction in fat.
CLA acts to reduce body fat stores by chronically increasing metabolic rate.
(West DB, Blohm FY, Truett AA, DeLany JP. Conjugated linoleic acid persistently increases total energy expenditure in AKR/J mice without increasing uncoupling protein gene expression. J Nutr. 2000 Oct;130(10):2471-7.)
Treatment with CLA chronically increases basal metabolic rate. Over time this elevation leads to significant reductions in fat mass. The exact mechanism by which CLA raises energy expenditure has yet to be elucidated but could act through PPARs.
CLA is a naturally occurring fatty acid found primarily in beef and dairy fats. The reason that it is found primarily in beef and dairy products is because CLA is formed from linoleic acid by bacteria in the gut of cows (or herbavors). The cows then absorb the CLA and it becomes incorporated into lipids in the cows, including milk lipids.
How does it work?
CLA increases fat oxidation.
(West, D. B., J. P. DeLany, P. M. Camet, F. Blohm, A. A. Truett, and J. A. Scimeca. Effects of conjugated linoleic acid on body fat and energy metabolism in the mouse. Am. J. Physiol. 275 (Regulatory Integrative Comp. Physiol. 44): R667-R672, 1998)
CLA has been shown to increase certain enzymes responsible for fatty acid beta-oxidation. This means that the body’s ability to burn fat goes up significantly with CLA supplementation.
Inhibition of triglyceride uptake into fat cells.
(Park, Y., K. J. Albright, W. Liu, J. M. Storkson, M. E. Cook, and M. W. Pariza. Effect of conjugated linoleic acid on body composition in mice. Lipids 32: 853-858, 1997)
The best way to get fat is to send the fat you eat straight to the fat cell to be stored. This is generally what happens when we eat fat, however CLA supplementation has been shown to decrease the enzyme necessary for fat cells to take up fat and triglycerides from the blood. This fat is then more apt to be taken up by muscle tissue where it can be burned for fuel. In fact, CLA also increases the muscles ability to burn fat as fuel as mentioned previously.
CLA increases insulin sensitivity
(Houseknecht, K. L., J. P. Vanden Heuvel, S. Y. Moya-Camarena, C. P. Portocarrero, L. W. Peck, K. P. Nickel, and M. A. Belury. Dietary conjugated linoleic acid normalizes impaired glucose tolerance in the Zucker diabetic fatty fa/fa rat. Biochem. Biophys. Res. Commun. 244: 678-682, 1998)
The reason CLA has been labeled a “partitioning agent” is because of its ability to shift the flow of nutrients away from fat tissue and towards muscle tissue. So you are starving the fat and feeding your muscle, the end result being an increase or maintenance of muscle and a reduction in fat.
CLA acts to reduce body fat stores by chronically increasing metabolic rate.
(West DB, Blohm FY, Truett AA, DeLany JP. Conjugated linoleic acid persistently increases total energy expenditure in AKR/J mice without increasing uncoupling protein gene expression. J Nutr. 2000 Oct;130(10):2471-7.)
Treatment with CLA chronically increases basal metabolic rate. Over time this elevation leads to significant reductions in fat mass. The exact mechanism by which CLA raises energy expenditure has yet to be elucidated but could act through PPARs.
Ephedrine is a sympathomimetic, which means it acts to increase sympathetic activity. As a sympathomimetic, ephedrine acts to stimulate the sympathetic nervous system. It does this by causing pre-synaptic nerve terminals to release norepinephrine, or what is commonly called noradrenaline (NA), into the synaptic space. It also has the effect of increasing circulating adrenaline (Adr), the body’s chief beta-2 agonist. Noradrenaline, once released into the synaptic space, interacts with adrenergic receptors on the surface of adipocytes (plain old fat cells). This initiates a sequence of events within the adipocyte that increases lipolysis.
The process of lipolysis is under feedback control which attenuates lipolysis at several levels. A couple of the chemicals involved in attenuating the effectiveness of ephedrine are phosphodiesterases and adenosine. As you might expect, these are the chemicals that we will try to minimize with caffeine while using ephedrine as a fat loss agent.
Caffeine is a methylxanthine. Caffeine possesses the ability to inhibit phosphodiesterases within the cell and has even been shown to have the ability to prevent some re-uptake of norepinephrine. Another property of caffeine is adenosine receptor blockade. There is some question as to weather oral caffeine ingestion actually significantly inhibits phosphodiesterases but it does seem to inhibit adenosine action in vivo. Both of these properties make it potentially useful as an adjunct to ephedrine to enhance fat loss.
Pointers:
Keep carbs relatively low while using ephedrine. Insulin counter acts the effects of ephedrine and will ultimately hinder fat loss if carbs remain too high. This does not mean you must go on a ketogenic diet. If total calories are low enough carbs become less of an issue. But if you are trying to keep muscle by lowering calories only slightly, the carbs will sabotage ephedrine’s action.
Ephedrine and Clenbuterol have two different, yet similar mechanisms of action. Nevertheless, don’t use Clenbuterol and ephedrine at the same time, or even in an alternating fashion. Both drugs work through the beta-adrenergic receptor, however, Clenbuterol will shut down beta-receptors within a few weeks. Taking ephedrine at that time will do little for you. Better to use ephedrine from the start of your diet, only switching to Clenbuterol no further than 3 weeks out from the contest.
In order to get the most benefit from ephedrine on muscle loss, adjust your dosing schedule to every 2 hours. This will enhance the duration and consistency of beta-adrenergic activity. Be sure to adjust the amount you take each time in order to maintain the total amount taken over the course of a day. For example, instead of taking 20 mg ephedrine and 200 mg caffeine 3 times daily, take 10 mg ephedrine and 100 mg caffeine 6 times daily.
The process of lipolysis is under feedback control which attenuates lipolysis at several levels. A couple of the chemicals involved in attenuating the effectiveness of ephedrine are phosphodiesterases and adenosine. As you might expect, these are the chemicals that we will try to minimize with caffeine while using ephedrine as a fat loss agent.
Caffeine is a methylxanthine. Caffeine possesses the ability to inhibit phosphodiesterases within the cell and has even been shown to have the ability to prevent some re-uptake of norepinephrine. Another property of caffeine is adenosine receptor blockade. There is some question as to weather oral caffeine ingestion actually significantly inhibits phosphodiesterases but it does seem to inhibit adenosine action in vivo. Both of these properties make it potentially useful as an adjunct to ephedrine to enhance fat loss.
Pointers:
Keep carbs relatively low while using ephedrine. Insulin counter acts the effects of ephedrine and will ultimately hinder fat loss if carbs remain too high. This does not mean you must go on a ketogenic diet. If total calories are low enough carbs become less of an issue. But if you are trying to keep muscle by lowering calories only slightly, the carbs will sabotage ephedrine’s action.
Ephedrine and Clenbuterol have two different, yet similar mechanisms of action. Nevertheless, don’t use Clenbuterol and ephedrine at the same time, or even in an alternating fashion. Both drugs work through the beta-adrenergic receptor, however, Clenbuterol will shut down beta-receptors within a few weeks. Taking ephedrine at that time will do little for you. Better to use ephedrine from the start of your diet, only switching to Clenbuterol no further than 3 weeks out from the contest.
In order to get the most benefit from ephedrine on muscle loss, adjust your dosing schedule to every 2 hours. This will enhance the duration and consistency of beta-adrenergic activity. Be sure to adjust the amount you take each time in order to maintain the total amount taken over the course of a day. For example, instead of taking 20 mg ephedrine and 200 mg caffeine 3 times daily, take 10 mg ephedrine and 100 mg caffeine 6 times daily.
Bryan, if you use ephedrine as a pre workout stimulant, does insulin counter act its stimulatory effect? Once a week, I take 50 mg ephedrine and 250 mg caffeine 20 min before I hit the gym to get wired up, and then a shake with 1 serv of Primer and 37 g glucose polymeres immediately before I begin lifting. Do you think I should adjust the amount of protein and/or carbs in order to keep the shake from interfering with the ephedrine-boost?
Based on the fact that insulin inhibits ECA's effect to some degree how would you recomend someone impliment ECA on an isocaloric diet? Evenly distributed between meals? Say you were feeding ~ every 3 hours would it be best to take your dosages 1.5 hours after each meal (and therefore 1.5 hours before your next feeding).
Steve McDermott
New Member
Just to chime in here, I have been following Bryan's recomendations in regards to E/C, and it has made a huge difference. No peaks and valleys, no side effects, and good fat loss results. I didn't get near the benefits with traditional dosing and always had the side effects.
Steve
Steve
Bryan, what would be a moderate to high dose of CLA? 3g/day? 5g? 10g? The stuff can be spendy.
And when should it be taken? Based on what you said, I can imagine a couple of scenarios:
- Before bedtime (it won't be burned for fuel)
- During higher carb dieting periods (again, maybe the availability of carbs for enegy will spare the CLA)
Thanks!
And when should it be taken? Based on what you said, I can imagine a couple of scenarios:
- Before bedtime (it won't be burned for fuel)
- During higher carb dieting periods (again, maybe the availability of carbs for enegy will spare the CLA)
Thanks!
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bryan Haycock @ May 01 2002,8:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Pointers:
Keep carbs relatively low while using ephedrine. Insulin counter acts the effects of ephedrine and will ultimately hinder fat loss if carbs remain too high. This does not mean you must go on a ketogenic diet. If total calories are low enough carbs become less of an issue. But if you are trying to keep muscle by lowering calories only slightly, the carbs will sabotage ephedrine’s action.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Bryan just bumping this back up since my origional attempt to get this answered kinda got overlooked.
Based on the fact that insulin inhibits ECA's effect to some degree how would you recomend someone impliment ECA on an isocaloric diet? Evenly distributed between meals? Say you were feeding ~ every 3 hours would it be best to take your dosages 1.5 hours after each meal (and therefore 1.5 hours before your next feeding).
Thank you:
=w=
Keep carbs relatively low while using ephedrine. Insulin counter acts the effects of ephedrine and will ultimately hinder fat loss if carbs remain too high. This does not mean you must go on a ketogenic diet. If total calories are low enough carbs become less of an issue. But if you are trying to keep muscle by lowering calories only slightly, the carbs will sabotage ephedrine’s action.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Bryan just bumping this back up since my origional attempt to get this answered kinda got overlooked.
Based on the fact that insulin inhibits ECA's effect to some degree how would you recomend someone impliment ECA on an isocaloric diet? Evenly distributed between meals? Say you were feeding ~ every 3 hours would it be best to take your dosages 1.5 hours after each meal (and therefore 1.5 hours before your next feeding).
Thank you:
=w=
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (=w= @ May 03 2002,1:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Based on the fact that insulin inhibits ECA's effect to some degree how would you recomend someone impliment ECA on an isocaloric diet? Evenly distributed between meals? Say you were feeding ~ every 3 hours would it be best to take your dosages 1.5 hours after each meal (and therefore 1.5 hours before your next feeding).[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well, the effect of insulin on e/c induced lipolysis is significant, but it does not mean that it completely negates the effects of e/c.
You should take e/c every two hours at half dose regardless of what diet you are using. In fact, I have had good succes using e/c while bulking. It enabled a bit more partitioning of calories away from fat... just my 2 cents.
The caffeine can also really cause havoc on your stomach. It gives lots of people significant pain (sometimes nausea) after a while of taking it on an empty stomach.
Well, the effect of insulin on e/c induced lipolysis is significant, but it does not mean that it completely negates the effects of e/c.
You should take e/c every two hours at half dose regardless of what diet you are using. In fact, I have had good succes using e/c while bulking. It enabled a bit more partitioning of calories away from fat... just my 2 cents.
The caffeine can also really cause havoc on your stomach. It gives lots of people significant pain (sometimes nausea) after a while of taking it on an empty stomach.
Bryan, I was just wondering if you could give a brief outline on how to effectively use EC on a bulking cycle? Dosage, etc?
I'm also a litte confused about how it works. If thermogenisis is occuring, will that not detract from overall calaries available for use in mass building? Or, is it that the muscle preserving effects of ephedra will allow you to continue building muscle and merely prevent fat gain? This seems like if could solve a lot of problems for me.
Thanks in advance
I'm also a litte confused about how it works. If thermogenisis is occuring, will that not detract from overall calaries available for use in mass building? Or, is it that the muscle preserving effects of ephedra will allow you to continue building muscle and merely prevent fat gain? This seems like if could solve a lot of problems for me.
Thanks in advance