Biotest Mag-10

T

Trev

New Member
I was just wondering if anyone had had success with this product while using it in conjuntion with HST.  If so, when during your cycle did you take it?  I was thinking that sometime during the 5s/negs would make the most sense, as these are the weeks during which growth has occurred; for me, at least.

    Also, assuming that I know when to take it, what dosage would you recommend?  I'm roughly 170 at 8% body fat, looking to pack on 10 more.  Since I'm fairly light, I was thinking that a dosage higher than 1 capful, 2x per day would be a waste.  What do you think?  I don't want to let any go to waste...it's fairly expensive, and I'm poor college student.  Thanks for any feedback in advance, I appreciate the help.
 
Interesting question that I would like to know of anyones experience as well.  It would make sense to take it during the heavier weeks, so I think your idea is right on track.

Steve
 
The best time to take the Mag-10 (or any other androgen) is just “before” the heaviest portion of your cycle.

A number of things are going to happen when you go off that, if not countered, will cause you to lose much of what you gained. Of primary concern is the load with which you are using to train when you go off. What often happens, is that guys will max out their strength while "on" by pushing low rep weights has heavy as they can possibly go. Then when they go off, they are forced to drop the weight because their strength and exercise tolerance goes down when they go off. This creates an environment of both "low testosterone" AND "decreasing weight loads".

So, there are two possible remedies. 1) Don't increase the weight loads just because the androgens are making you stronger. Instead, just increase the reps. So where you were doing 5 reps with a given weight before you started taking mag-10 or some other androgen, now you can do 8 or even 10 reps with that same weight now that you are "on". Then when you go off, you simply drop the number of reps, NOT the weight.

Your other solution is to train in the rep range just before your most heavy weights in an HST cycle. So, if you are doing a 2-on/4-off cycle of Mag-10, begin using it during the last week of 10s and continue into the first week of 5s. Then when you go off, you will begin the second week of 5s with the weight actually getting heavier for at least a week, and then maintained for an additional 2 weeks. So when you go off the weights are actually getting heavier.

Diet (protein and calories) is going to be probably the most important factor in predicting whether or not you experience gains while using androgens. Training is of course important, but the proper drug regimen and diet is really what determines how big you get. You can train like crap and still grow if your diet and androgens are right.
 
Bryan,

Thank your for the response. I think I may being a cylce of Mag-10 during the last week of 10s, and let it take me through until me second of 5s. My diet will not be a problem. However, you didn't mention anything about the dosage; at 170, will 1 capful (roughly 6ml) 2 times per day be sufficient, to your your mind? Thanks again.
 
However, Bryan wouldn't one need to taking into account the half lives of the androgen, and in fact the general serum blood levels through one's lifting cycle? For example, dbol's average life is 4 hours, while I believe Cyp is more like 15 days.

I would imagine that, eventually, people will start to integrate their use of supplements and androgens with their training cycles.

Lester
 
Isn't Mag-10 a pro-hormone? I wouldn't mess with that stuff. Just take gear instead. You know what your getting into at least.
 
"However, Bryan wouldn't one need to taking into account the half lives of the androgen, and in fact the general serum blood levels through one's lifting cycle? For example, dbol's average life is 4 hours, while I believe Cyp is more like 15 days."

Well, not with respect to Mag-10 or the other Diols. Their half lives are very short. They don't reside in the system more than a day in any "active" form. So, when your off, your off. Unlike something like Deca or Cyp, which will cause test suppression long after your last injection.

So, as far as countering the catabolic effects of going "off" a prohormone, you still only have the weight load to counter the negative effects of low testosterone levels. You might be able to load creatine begining the first day off to counter the catabolism, but you will still experience some shrinking if you are big to begin with.

BTW, everyone should know that Lester has a great physique! He is no stranger to building muscle!
 
"BTW, everyone should know that Lester has a great physique! He is no stranger to building muscle!"

Bryan, thank you for the kind words!

Lester
PS: I didn't see any introductions, and wasn't sure if they are acceptable to you. They might be a good idea so people get to know each other. I'll post one and feel free to delete!

You da man!
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The best time to take the Mag-10 (or any other androgen) is just “before” the heaviest portion of your cycle.

A number of things are going to happen when you go off that, if not countered, will cause you to lose much of what you gained...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

If you only plan to use prohormones occasionally (i.e., with more than 4 weeks between each use), would it be OK to save them for the last 2 weeks of the HST cycle as a whole, immediately before Strategic Deconditioning?
Also, could you use this time [with or without prohormones] to try to increase your 5RM weights as much as possible?

Superb website btw. Now in my second week of 15s and really enjoying the change.
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Cheers,
John Cavanagh
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bryan Haycock @ April 04 2002,6:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The best time to take the Mag-10 (or any other androgen) is just “before” the heaviest portion of your cycle.

A number of things are going to happen when you go off that, if not countered, will cause you to lose much of what you gained. Of primary concern is the load with which you are using to train when you go off. What often happens, is that guys will max out their strength while &quot;on&quot; by pushing low rep weights has heavy as they can possibly go. Then when they go off, they are forced to drop the weight because their strength and exercise tolerance goes down when they go off. This creates an environment of both &quot;low testosterone&quot; AND &quot;decreasing weight loads&quot;.

So, there are two possible remedies. 1) Don't increase the weight loads just because the androgens are making you stronger. Instead, just increase the reps. So where you were doing 5 reps with a given weight before you started taking mag-10 or some other androgen, now you can do 8 or even 10 reps with that same weight now that you are &quot;on&quot;. Then when you go off, you simply drop the number of reps, NOT the weight.

Your other solution is to train in the rep range just before your most heavy weights in an HST cycle. So, if you are doing a 2-on/4-off cycle of Mag-10, begin using it during the last week of 10s and continue into the first week of 5s. Then when you go off, you will begin the second week of 5s with the weight actually getting heavier for at least a week, and then maintained for an additional 2 weeks. So when you go off the weights are actually getting heavier.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Now this is some information I was looking for in my thread &quot;10 week AAS cycle with HST&quot;. As long as loading is maintained or increasing when coming off, one would retain more muscle mass...

So the main questions are:

- Is it OK to skip Strategic Deconditioning, since androgens lower the &quot;stimulation threshold&quot; for hypertrophy?

- Is it adviceable to increase volume while 'on' - i.e. from 1 to 2 sets?

&quot;now you can do 8 or even 10 reps with that same weight now that you are &quot;on&quot;. Then when you go off, you simply drop the number of reps, NOT the weight.&quot;

- Does this implicate that one should do at least 8 reps while 'on' (e.g. 15s down to 8s, skip SD, then repeat for a 10 week cycle), then come off and do 5s with the 8RM weights?

Think I'm getting closer to a conclusion here...
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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blade @ April 10 2002,12:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bryan Haycock @ April 04 2002,6:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The best time to take the Mag-10 (or any other androgen) is just “before” the heaviest portion of your cycle.

A number of things are going to happen when you go off that, if not countered, will cause you to lose much of what you gained. Of primary concern is the load with which you are using to train when you go off. What often happens, is that guys will max out their strength while &quot;on&quot; by pushing low rep weights has heavy as they can possibly go. Then when they go off, they are forced to drop the weight because their strength and exercise tolerance goes down when they go off. This creates an environment of both &quot;low testosterone&quot; AND &quot;decreasing weight loads&quot;.

So, there are two possible remedies. 1) Don't increase the weight loads just because the androgens are making you stronger. Instead, just increase the reps. So where you were doing 5 reps with a given weight before you started taking mag-10 or some other androgen, now you can do 8 or even 10 reps with that same weight now that you are &quot;on&quot;. Then when you go off, you simply drop the number of reps, NOT the weight.

Your other solution is to train in the rep range just before your most heavy weights in an HST cycle. So, if you are doing a 2-on/4-off cycle of Mag-10, begin using it during the last week of 10s and continue into the first week of 5s. Then when you go off, you will begin the second week of 5s with the weight actually getting heavier for at least a week, and then maintained for an additional 2 weeks. So when you go off the weights are actually getting heavier.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Now this is some information I was looking for in my thread &quot;10 week AAS cycle with HST&quot;. As long as loading is maintained or increasing when coming off, one would retain more muscle mass...

So the main questions are:

- Is it OK to skip Strategic Deconditioning, since androgens lower the &quot;stimulation threshold&quot; for hypertrophy?

- Is it adviceable to increase volume while 'on' - i.e. from 1 to 2 sets?

&quot;now you can do 8 or even 10 reps with that same weight now that you are &quot;on&quot;. Then when you go off, you simply drop the number of reps, NOT the weight.&quot;

- Does this implicate that one should do at least 8 reps while 'on' (e.g. 15s down to 8s, skip SD, then repeat for a 10 week cycle), then come off and do 5s with the 8RM weights?

Think I'm getting closer to a conclusion here...  
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[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
BUMP. Would like to hear more as well. Starting MAG-10 and if I can salvage my Fina experiment may use that.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blade @ April 10 2002,12:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So the main questions are:

- Is it OK to skip Strategic Deconditioning, since androgens lower the &quot;stimulation threshold&quot; for hypertrophy?

- Is it adviceable to increase volume while 'on' - i.e. from 1 to 2 sets?

&quot;now you can do 8 or even 10 reps with that same weight now that you are &quot;on&quot;. Then when you go off, you simply drop the number of reps, NOT the weight.&quot;

- Does this implicate that one should do at least 8 reps while 'on' (e.g. 15s down to 8s, skip SD, then repeat for a 10 week cycle), then come off and do 5s with the 8RM weights?

Think I'm getting closer to a conclusion here...  
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[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
1) About SD while on a cycle: SD isn't necessary while &quot;on&quot; a cycle. If you are doing 10 weeks, your weights should stay heavy or be slightly increasing the entire cycle. Then, you shouldn't do SD until AFTER your natural test is back up to at least normal. This is very important. As long as test levels are low, you must continue to train uninterrupted.

2) Increased volume during a cycle: Yes, there is nothing &quot;bad&quot; about high volume. In fact, it is good if your exercise tolerance is high. When on increased androgens your exercise tolerence is higher, and you can train with higher volume, thereby increasing the time that the muscle is actually loaded, without risking overtraining (within reason).

3) Skip the SD and 15s. As long as you are injury free, you should train with heavier weights. There is no benefit to cycle the weight down while you are &quot;on&quot;. The only benefit from cycling weight loads down is to increase the muscles sensitivity to being loaded, and to heal injuries. While androgens are high, the muscle remains sensitive to consistant/constant loading much much longer. If you are injury free, there's no need to stop to heal.

Now, if you were going to embark on a cycle lasting several &quot;years&quot; in order to begin competing at a high level, you would want to cycle weights and do some SD in typical HST fashion. When going on a cycle lasting for years, you would pretty much train as if you were natural, accept for taking advantage of increased work capacity and recovery ability. However, you would still benefit from the HST-type cycling of weight loads and SD, its just that the time frame for this cycling would be stretched out considerably.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bryan Haycock @ April 29 2002,4:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blade @ April 10 2002,12:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So the main questions are:

- Is it OK to skip Strategic Deconditioning, since androgens lower the &quot;stimulation threshold&quot; for hypertrophy?

- Is it adviceable to increase volume while 'on' - i.e. from 1 to 2 sets?

&quot;now you can do 8 or even 10 reps with that same weight now that you are &quot;on&quot;. Then when you go off, you simply drop the number of reps, NOT the weight.&quot;

- Does this implicate that one should do at least 8 reps while 'on' (e.g. 15s down to 8s, skip SD, then repeat for a 10 week cycle), then come off and do 5s with the 8RM weights?

Think I'm getting closer to a conclusion here...  
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[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
1) About SD while on a cycle: SD isn't necessary while &quot;on&quot; a cycle. If you are doing 10 weeks, your weights should stay heavy or be slightly increasing the entire cycle. Then, you shouldn't do SD until AFTER your natural test is back up to at least normal. This is very important. As long as test levels are low, you must continue to train uninterrupted.

2) Increased volume during a cycle: Yes, there is nothing &quot;bad&quot; about high volume. In fact, it is good if your exercise tolerance is high. When on increased androgens your exercise tolerence is higher, and you can train with higher volume, thereby increasing the time that the muscle is actually loaded, without risking overtraining (within reason).

3) Skip the SD and 15s. As long as you are injury free, you should train with heavier weights. There is no benefit to cycle the weight down while you are &quot;on&quot;. The only benefit from cycling weight loads down is to increase the muscles sensitivity to being loaded, and to heal injuries. While androgens are high, the muscle remains sensitive to consistant/constant loading much much longer. If you are injury free, there's no need to stop to heal.

Now, if you were going to embark on a cycle lasting several &quot;years&quot; in order to begin competing at a high level, you would want to cycle weights and do some SD in typical HST fashion. When going on a cycle lasting for years, you would pretty much train as if you were natural, accept for taking advantage of increased work capacity and recovery ability. However, you would still benefit from the HST-type cycling of weight loads and SD, its just that the time frame for this cycling would be stretched out considerably.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
3) Skip the SD and 15s. As long as you are injury free, you should train with heavier weights. There is no benefit to cycle the weight down while you are &quot;on&quot;. The only benefit from cycling weight loads down is to increase the muscles sensitivity to being loaded, and to heal injuries. While androgens are high, the muscle remains sensitive to consistant/constant loading much much longer. If you are injury free, there's no need to stop to heal.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Bryan,

Can you give us some example of the types of cycles (training cycles) people have been doing while &quot;on&quot;

Do you still build up the 10's and 5's to their maxes??

How have guys like Boris and Millard modified HST?

Zaf
 
Guys Like Millard and Boris (click the HST tab above) have adjusted there training pretty much as I suggested above. They will start with 15s or 12s, and increase the weight each workout until they either hit their 5s, or stop because the weight is not safe to use anymore.

Both Millard and Boris, independant from one another, found that they needed to stop increasing the weight beyond their 8 rep max for safety.

They don't do SD, unless they go off completely for an extended period, and if they don't go &quot;off&quot; they only drop the weight back down to 15s if they get a strain injury or sore joints (elbows are very susceptible). The 15s seem to really work well for getting rid of tendon pain.

Of course, the diet is paramount. Continued progress requires sufficient calories and protein.
 
Thanks a million, Mr Haycock! I've been eagerly awaiting your response!  
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What you say makes sense, and I will modify my original plan according to your outline.

What concerns me is that even though strength increases pretty rapidly while 'on' , given 5lbs increments - 3x/week - 10 weeks - that's 150lbs... That's why I initially suggested doing two &quot;traditional&quot; HST cycles (wo SD) - requiring less total load increase over the 10 weeks.

From personal e-mail correspondence with Millard - that's pretty close to what he's been doing as far as HST goes.

I'm keeping in mind that not only absolute load, but relative load increase is a factor in the hypertrophic response. It would be assumed logically that e.g. 1lbs increase from workout to workout is a suboptimal stimulus, or is that an incorrect assumption?

Thanks again for your help so far!
 
Ya, I think Millard has said he really benefited by cycling the reps without using SD, just to keep his tendons and joints feeling good.

The problem with 1lb increments is that it isn't enough to cause a &quot;different&quot; stimulus than the previous workout. Don't worry about zig-zagging the weights as you go from one rep scheme to the next. I have found my body (ok maybe its my brain) enjoys the break/rest. Its good for my attitude to have a few easier workouts every few weeks.
 
So if not using SD while &quot;on&quot;, how would one cycle their weights as to not plateau? Do you simply skip SD and start at the higher reps and lighter weights as if you did SD? Or is that the whole point of HST is that you shouldn't plateau while &quot;on&quot; if everything else is in check? So do you just keep doing the 5s (or whatever rep scheme you end with) and just keep adding 5-10 lbs. every workout? (Provided your joints hold up.) I know from past experiences with typical training routines that it did matter how much of anything I took, even a gram of test/week stacked with other compounds, eventually size and strength gains slowed considerably. Is that not the case with HST and gear? If not, I can't even imagine the gains that are possible with HST and gear, and I can't wait to see them either!
 
So zig-zagging works after all... I've been thinking about this for some time, and it's understandable that the relative load increase is more important than pursuing constant load increases on EVERY workout at the cost of reducing load increase to 1lbs.

Is there some lower threshold for this load increase you think?

I couldn't find any direct evidence of this in studies, but this really gets down to nitpicking the finer points of HST anyways...

Alien: Think of it this way - with your natural hormonal levels, you are able to support a given amount of muscle mass (genetic limit). Elevating hormones by using drugs allows you to support more muscle mass, stabilizing at a higher level. In the long term of androgen use, it is suggested that you could very well elevate your genetic potential, thus enabling you to hold on to more of the muscle mass you've gained.

Let's say you've gained 20lbs, and that you reach a plateau. One of three things could be the cause:
1. You need to increase your calories to compensate for the increase in body mass
2. You need to increase androgen dosage to reach yet a higher level of muscle mass
3. You are not providing the necessary stimulus for hypertrophy

By using HST, you are optimizing pt 3, and will grow as fast as you possibly can given optimal conditions otherwise. Then you should focus on pt 1 before you increase androgen levels - you are better off saving that for later cycles IMO.
 
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