Achieving Progressive load Continuously

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(Lol @ Mar. 07 2008,17:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(lcars @ Mar. 07 2008,20:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">to me if you are using less effort to move a weight(80%) than you should be then you are not in an optimal environment for hypertrophy you are just maintaning.the body needs new or more demanding stimulie to grow and adapt.</div>
But then, surely, you are back to the argument that fatigue is more important than work done or strain on the muscle tissue? I thought that argument had been laid to rest a long time ago? (But maybe that was in a galaxy far, far away?
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i just think that work done (enough volume) and strain (close to 100% effort per rep scheme) done in a progressive manner is the best way to induce hypertrophy. you have to reduce how many x per week you train each bp or find another way round it, like short cycles.

and to clarify, when i say 100% effort i dont mean to balls out failure and beyond, as this could/would effect the cns and along with fatigue there could be an increased chance of injury.
 
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(lcars @ Mar. 08 2008,00:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Lol @ Mar. 07 2008,17:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(lcars @ Mar. 07 2008,20:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">to me if you are using less effort to move a weight(80%) than you should be then you are not in an optimal environment for hypertrophy you are just maintaning.the body needs new or more demanding stimulie to grow and adapt.</div>
But then, surely, you are back to the argument that fatigue is more important than work done or strain on the muscle tissue? I thought that argument had been laid to rest a long time ago? (But maybe that was in a galaxy far, far away?  
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i just think that work done (enough volume) and strain (close to 100% effort per rep scheme) done in a progressive manner is the best way to induce hypertrophy. you have to reduce how many x per week you train each bp or find another way round it, like short cycles.</div>
I wonder about this?

I had a similar conversation with Dan Moore through email a while back.

We all here respect Dan a lot and my question to him was similar to this statement.

From what I understand from my conversations with Dan 30 reps is enough to make a muscle grow. Given sufficient LOAD.

Which goes back to the &quot;right now effect&quot;

Now I know this is different for everyone...but the whole idea of training is to do as little as possible to make the muscle grow then stop and repeat as quickly as possible after that with a higher load.

Again higher volume shooting for a more &quot;right now effect&quot; goes against all of the above to a degree.

But Lcars has made great progress doing this.

The only OCD problem I have always had with any full body program is wondering if there is enough right now effect for the designated muscle.
 
Icars,

This is what I just came off of and there is no question it produced strength!! But it only produced hypertrophy, ironically, when I was actually using medium weights and reps in the 8-10 range. The higher weight and lower reps (like 4-6) didnt seem to induce hypertrophy at all in me.)

My thought on this is fiber type. Higher reps done at roughly near max effort means more TUT but hard work. So 10 reps at 95% effort. I think this gives people with more medium and slow twitch fibers a better workout.

More fast twitch and you can do higher weight/lower rep with hypertrophy. I think HST doesnt follow the fiber concept, if I recall, but it seems to hold true in my experience. And like you, I notice that near max effort is the sweet zone.

Jeff
 
You know which raises an Idea.

Has anyone ever considered a routine set up like this?

Day 1 Chest / triceps

Day 2 Back Biceps

Day 3 Off

Day 4 Shoulders / Legs

Day 5 Off

Day 6 Upper Body

Day 7 Off

Day 8 Lower Body

Day 9 off

Day 10 off

REPEAT...Given I don't know how the hell you would keep up with progressing your weights and I know this routine would not work for me with my lifestyle...but for someone who had the time and ability to keep up with the details...wouldn't this be the best of both worlds???

Or have I just lost my damn mind?
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I think you guys are missing the concept of HST. It's not the &quot;best&quot; system or any such thing until there is a test done with identical twins or something (or at least two very similar groups of people) against other systems. So far we have anecdotal (still good though) evidence from the members who have GROWN, not just maintained on it (*myself included for about 6 cycles straight*).
What it IS is an alternative system with some extra properties not often found elsewhere. And those are a boon to us older lifters, not to mention the education we've all gotten here.
Let's also remember that it's VERY alternative with 3 fullbody workouts/week. Try THAT with failures and you'll freekin' DIE.
As a kudo to Icars, I'll say that we all are different in some ways and some things work better for others. Sorry, no 'golden programs', 'magic exersizes', or 'Holy Grails' of BB'ing out there. We find what works for us and just DO it.
 
Quad,

The reason I keep coming back to HST is, again, the gymnasts. They train near everyday with LONG exhausting workouts and are freaking strong as heck and well built.

But they do use HST priciples. Frequent training, sub max weights, increasing load as they are able. I think the present HST could really benefit from the application of gymnastic concepts and exercises.

For example, including some stretch position lifts would help immensely I bet. And throwing in things like the Lever, Planche, etc makes joints strong and muscle crossfibers more abundant and hence muscle contraction more efficient and powerful. All this leads to more weight that can be lifted and hence better growth as I see it.

I started doing this in addition to my weight lifts about 3 months ago and it made me much stronger. And much more stable as well. I was able to lift really heavy maxes with no joint issues at all as in the past.

I am using them again this HST routine. I will be doing my weights in the AM and the gymnastics in the PM. You can actually do a pretty quick but efficient gymnastics routine in just 15 minutes. I have a few really good links filled with exercises if anyone is interested.

Jeff
 
Actually Quad,

3 days a week full body routine training with Failure is not that hard to do!

I have done many of them its just not optimal for strength increases!
 
Also to add I actually don't think HST is the holy grail at all...its just that HST tricks you into doing a lot of the things that we will not do ourself which leads to success!
 
Hey, whatever works, right? I even conceded to my wifetypeperson that if she wants her cardio before her resistance training, just go ahead. Whatever makes her keep working out will work better than losing interest.
Wiss: I'm certainly no expert on HST or gymnastics, but surely you're right about using HST for other type exersizes, as some of these guys do oly's and SST allready, so why not roly-poly jumping twisting and bouncing stuff too?
...hey guys, whatever happened to Leige? Longtimenosee.
 
Im not sure were Leige is?

Lcars how many sets are you doing now on ONCE a week per bodypart?

How are you setting up the reps / sets ??
 
Quad,

lol its not the rolly polly type of gymnastic stuff I mean.
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I mean more static holds in compromised positions or certain movements. Have you ever seen planche pushups? They are brutal! You put your feet on a box about shosulder height, your hand just a small amount in front of your belly button and shoulder width apart. (So your hands are basically behind your shoulders a good bit.) Go up and down with a stiff body.

Just getting one is hard! Those will make a man out of ya lol. The planche and lever themselves are just static holds that build core and joint strength.

You can see many exercises here:

http://www.amgym.com/tt/index_1456.cfm

You have to register your email but its worth it. Takes 10 seconds. Check out the &quot;strength and conditioning&quot; part. Some brutal exercises there.

Jeff
 
If you have a good bench, (1.5 x bw), planches aren't that hard.
I looked at the site: not really interested in much of what they're about, but would be useful for the men's fitness crowd. Unfortunately I saw many many errors in some of the articles...on water (outdated info), creatine (didn't even know anything about methylateds), and some rehab exersizes were using external rotators; usually the very cause of the problems.
I'd take those guys with a grain of salt if I were you. They need to study more, especially Kruse.
 
Quad,

I didnt even read the dieatary stuff as I assumed they knew nothing about &quot;proper&quot; diet. I have studied nutrition for the last 10 years so I wasnt intersted in their view as I like mine lol.
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I do still love the BW exercises though. Some of the raw strength and control those guys have I find impressive, and quite useful for martial arts!
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Have a great one
Jeff
 
I always loved watching gymnasts do their stuff and marvelled at their upper body strength. However, I reckon that their legs are not what they could be and that if they had leg development to match their upper bodies they would struggle with a lot of the things they do. Also, they are generally very small/light people. I have never seen a 220lb gymnast do the kind of things that really impress me on the apparatus. There must be someone out there though...
 
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(Joe.Muscle @ Mar. 08 2008,16:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Im not sure were Leige is?

Lcars how many sets are you doing now on ONCE a week per bodypart?

How are you setting up the reps / sets ??</div>
well ive been easing myself into high volume workouts again.

but today i did chest 3 db sets flat, 3 incline press(type of machine), 3 decline bb plus 1 set of heavy machine fly's and 1 rep out set which really gets the blood in.

then bi's i did 2 sets widegrip preacher, 2 sets narrow and then 2 sets of hammers job done!

im hitting about the 5-7 rep mark at the moment goin heavy, im gonna finish this cycle soon then hit the creatine and start 15,s again.

@wisslewj, you may have miss understood i start all my rep schemes with almost 100% effort. that goes for high reps (15-20) down to the low reps(5-1), this way you can progress the load adequately and take advantage of high and low reps.
 
in addition, i love the 15's as they really get the blood in, stretch, and strengthen the tendons ready for the heavy stuff plus some muscle groups need high reps to grow imo.

the sweet spot for growth for me and maybe others is the 8-12 rep range these kick ass, the low reps are great for strength,however i dont tend to get much of a pump(although this is no indicator of growth) from low reps unless i really slow them down.

what was this thread called again?
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Lcars, is exacty the example I have been talking about.

Let me pic on you Lcars for a minute.
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Lcars is following progressive load but outside of that he is following very low frequency ( a no - no here and at Lyles board).

He is having GREAT gains from the 8-12 reps that old school bodybuilders have always recommended. If you mention something along the lines of 8-12 reps to some labcoats they kick your ass and tell you that its the heavy weight that gives you more growth
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And he is using what I would call lots of volume already and its considering going into HIGH Volume.

So science tells us to reconsider a lot of what Lcars is doing but he is doing it for the right now effect and throwing frequency out of the window and by doing this it has gotten him HUGE!
 
...and he shrunk again, then grew again...but brick by brick is building the house.
I'm working into a volume workout myself right now (the adding reps scheme) because I need a new program to hit myself with.
It COULD be...that lowrep works for a while, highrep works for a while, one or another program works for a while...and they all seem to stall out after a bit.
My point is that it may be just that it's not the high or low reps or whatever, but the adaptations to new stimuli that creates just as much hypertrophy as the exersize system or volume. I can't back this up, but it is a collective awareness from seeing so many different things work for so many people - many swearing it is the Holy Grail and we should all be doing just this ONE THING...yeh, right.
How many times have we seen:
5x5
10x3
HST
Shock sets
Railroads
Strip sets
20 rep, and even mega rep systems being touted as the &quot;best&quot; road to size?
I think the best road to size is food, sleep, and hitting the gym hard and often...but dang, that opens up the frequency argument again, doesn't it?
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Great point Quad...and I think you are 100% right on.

Its seems that my observations are they same.

If you are on low volume and are not growing try high volume.

If you are own high volume and now growing try low volume.

High reps try low reps....yadda yadda yadda.

Hey what are Railroads? Never heard of them??
 
Railroads.
I think most known for DB curls, but you could do other things with help, like you do strip sets. Starting at the low end of the db rack, do x amount of curls, move up the rack with the set number of curls, then back down to complete fatigue, usually.
If you've never had a lactic acid burn, you will now.
 
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