this routine kicks major A$$

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need2eat

New Member
Actually, I dont know if it does or not, my thread title was to solely gain attention.  
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So I cant help but notice the HST regulars are going to alternative routines lately....yeah yeah...they are based on "HST principles" blah blah blah.
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It gets me to thinking,  How many people have turned their current mesocycles into cycles?

example.  Take the 15's, push them out as far as you can possibly go.  SD.  Then do 10's, push them out as far as you can possibly go with good form.  SD.  Do the 5's the same way.

This way, you would be doing three variations vs say one 5X5 which seems to be popular now.  Give you twice the opportunity to stimulat some growth.  
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Just wondering, Im not asking if anyone had good results doing this, as its all relative to you anyway, Im just wondering who might have done it.
 
That was a cheesy trick! Did mommy like your brother better?
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Actually, it's a neat idea IMO. At first I thought of too many reps/low weight with the 15's doing that, but since you're adding weight past your rm, you aren't going to go very much farther with it anyway.
The downside I see here would be failures. You blow out your CNS in the 15's, and how are you gonna do/grow/complete the 10's? Same for ending the 10's. I can't imagine going into my fives after blowing out my entire body in the tens.

5x5 is popular because it turns you into superman. I stalled out in HST gains so am in a long 5x5 cycle to prep me for HST with higher weights. I can show you a lot of other programs (failure) that people quit and never go back to. HIT, MN, DC...etc.
HST is forever , baby!
 
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(quadancer @ Mar. 08 2007,14:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">HST is forever , baby!</div>
Amen!
 
I figured the SD period  (1-2 weeks)  would prevent blowing out the CNS?  What do you think?


I estimate my 15 and 10's like most people based on my previous 5's experience, figured this might help take advantage of any inaccuracy, in some cases, im feeling stronger at the end as well of the mesocycle, also take advantage of that occurance.


If I was suggesting hopping from one cycle to the next, then yeah, Id say the CNS would be an issue.


Maybe?
 
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(need2eat @ Mar. 08 2007,10:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I figured the SD period (1-2 weeks) would prevent blowing out the CNS? What do you think?</div>
Among other effects...
 
I think it's personal, need. Yes, SD heals the CNS, but if you overreach, you blow it out again. Someone in great shape with good recovery could possibly do your idea and get enough recovery by the zigzag into the tens, fives, to do it. I could not, especially since I do linear by default.
 
Yes he is.  
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Which is kinda why Im not sure how CNS concerns arise.

As HST suggest we achieve a specific Rep max, them move to another.

What my method suggests is that we actually achieve the rep max and emphasize rest.

As most people dont wanna take the time to get an exact rep max for each mesocycle, every cycle, so they use calculators.  From my expereince, I have absolutely no trouble hitting my 15 or 10 rm at the end of each mesocycle.  If a person keeps pushing each mesocycle's poundage, until they reach their true specific rep max via good form, then they are merely following HST.

Now the SD following each mesocycle or in this case, lets call it a micro cycle, haha,  not only supplies rest and growth but deconditioning, that when you take the next micro cycle of 10's, the submax weight would be more effective/efficient, as it will feel heavier than if you had just come off the 15's two days before hand.  Then this process repeats itself with the 5's.

I think most people get confused, HST is supposedly designed to cause hypertrophy using submax weight, not to get strong, strength gains are a nice by product. My suggestion would really emphasize deconditioning, as your starting fresh for the 15/10 and 5's or however you wanna break the reps down.



Im even thinking a person could either do smaller increments per micro cycle or repeat increments every two workouts, then each micro cycle would be a little more than 4wks, depending on how long it takes to achieve a given rep max with your best poundage, using good form.  Otherwise, you micro cycle would only last a little over two weeks, or until you reach your rep max using the best poundage you can handle using good form.

This kinda goes along the lines of periodization but not really, as their is no rhyme or reason, other than to stimulate the muscle differently for each micro cycle.



Let it be known, need2eat coined the phrase micro cycle.  
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  haha
 
Seems to me it would be tough to start right in on the 5's after a SD. Setting yourself up for an injury. One of the benefits of the 15-10-5 progression is to get your body ready for the beating the 5's will put on you. Just my thoughts though.

Keystone
 
I look at my last log and I have my maxes. And I know from experience that I can always BEAT that by 10-20 lbs. AND...as I near the end of a mesocycle, if it's looking like things are progressing beyond my expected max, I add a bit more weight each workout (well, usually the last two) and go ahead with it.
Personally, I can barely take two weeks off as it is...let alone do that between each &quot;microcycle'! And Keystone has made a good point. I'm not poopin' on the idea bro, but that's what our discussion board is for. Besides, this is fun.
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Keystone makes a good point...but I will give you one reason why jumping into the 5's wont cause injury.....5X5 training.  
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  Makes sense quadancer?


You kinda defined my reasoning for this, quadancer,  RM never is a true RM cause, as it never fails, when the 15 or 10 RM comes along, there seems to be some room to move forward, with this method, you would continue until you nail your RM, there would be no guessing, your last workout for that &quot;micro cycle&quot; would be the one in which you come up one rep short on the last set, SD, then move to the next &quot;micro cycle&quot;.


Id say one week would work fine, as its been discussed before, two weeks doesnt really decondition, as deconditioning is defined anyway.  This is, IMO another reason why a one to two week break, then jump into fives shouldnt matter, as it possible your body isnt technically deconditioned within such a short period of time.


Another way to look at it, you would be approaching the muscle using three distinct methods, one has to stimulate something right...haha, vs going to a new routine thats just one basic concept, like oh, 85% of all routines.


Thoughts?
 
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(need2eat @ Mar. 08 2007,19:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Keystone makes a good point...but I will give you one reason why jumping into the 5's wont cause injury.....5X5 training.  
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  Makes sense quadancer?


You kinda defined my reasoning for this, quadancer,  RM never is a true RM cause, as it never fails, when the 15 or 10 RM comes along, there seems to be some room to move forward, with this method, you would continue until you nail your RM, there would be no guessing, your last workout for that &quot;micro cycle&quot; would be the one in which you come up one rep short on the last set, SD, then move to the next &quot;micro cycle&quot;.


Id say one week would work fine, as its been discussed before, two weeks doesnt really decondition, as deconditioning is defined anyway.  This is, IMO another reason why a one to two week break, then jump into fives shouldnt matter, as it possible your body isnt technically deconditioned within such a short period of time.


Another way to look at it, you would be approaching the muscle using three distinct methods, one has to stimulate something right...haha, vs going to a new routine thats just one basic concept, like oh, 85% of all routines.


Thoughts?</div>
In a 5x5 program you usually start off at 60 some odd percent of your 1RM, and gradually add weights over a long period of time. In HST, it's two frikken weeks. Big difference there.

If you are talking about doing these cycles where you reach your max in 2 weeks time and continue doing your max for as long as possible, you're begging for overtraining.
 
You may wanna take the time to read my posts.


At no time have I suggest someone should use their true RM for consecutive workout days, I stated it should be met, then the mini cycle ended, followed by an SD period.


Most people that have done a few HST cycles, use calculators to get their 15/10's or what have you, off their 5's.  By doing so, its not always accurate, in other cases, you just happen to be stronger as you progress, in any case, your RM isnt your true RM.  As I previously stated, your LAST SET, would be the one in which you come short of completing your last set by one rep.  This implies good form, and ensures you reach your true RM.

This above really isnt new, this is HST's intention.  The only oddity, is the idea of taking a SD period in between the 15 and 10 and 5's, but again this would ensure deconditioning and ensure your submax weights are efficient.



Not a big difference at all.  There is nothing (hst related) that states your beginning percentage has to be 60, 70 or 80, nor do I see anywhere, were it states each mesocycle has to be two weeks.  If you would have read ALL my posts, you may have noticed where I suggested that smaller increments or using a specific weight consecutive workouts, might be a good idea to spread out this time frame, obviously beginning at a lower RM percentage would fall into this concept, this way, you not limiting yourself to two or so weeks to reach your true RM.
 
I'll add that SD is either SD or just a short rest and not an SD. The point being to make submax weights do some good; in the rest method, they most likely won't cause hypertrophy. It would seem, if you go into a mesocycle after a 'rest', you're depending on the latter end of the cycle to grow from rather than the whole mesocycle. That equates (in my thinking) to less muscle breakdown/growth.
Personally, as I stated, I don't end a mesocycle under max, so there IS no continuance to be done. I think some guys get to staying with the preplanned numbers a bit too strictly, and cheat themselves of advancement.
I guess you're right about injury jumping into the fives, since you're still 'conditioned', so Keystones thought (as I neatly blame it on him) is irrelevant here if the &quot;SD&quot; is only a week. But we had assumed you meant a real SD. And Steve's point is correct too, 5x5 is following HST principles.
Completely on the other hand, your idea may be good for someone who's schedule won't allow them to work continuously for a whole cycle. Or someone who is hopelessly addicted to failure training!
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Its NOT failure training.
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Your simply meeting your TRUE RM for a given total reps, nothing less, nothing more, your supposed to do this with HST anyway.
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Im just pointing out a human flaw, no one wants to take the time to figure out what their true RM is for each mesocycle, which involved taking weeks off from training, on top of the SD period. Like you stated, SD is hard enough to take time out for. My idea ensures you reach your true RM, dont guess, dont speculate, you reach it an stop, you just have to forget about a mesocycle only lasting two weeks, instead, it last until you reach your RM.



Hell if anything, your argument has convinced me of this. If someone needs more R&amp;R, a true SD after each mesocycle or mini cycle as I called it...haha, might be a good idea. On the flip side, your convincing me another possibility, might be no break is required at all. Instead of focusing on two week mesocycles, keep doing a specific mesocycle until you gradually reach your true RM, however long that might be, once achieved, stop, start your next mesocycle. As that is what HST wants to happen....hmmm
 
I remember reading it.

You suggest you add weight until say 15 reps is difficult, add weight, do as many reps as possible, add weight, as many reps as possible.

Im not suggesting anything remotely close to that.

However, your idea was given credibility on the HST main page.

Progressively Adjusting reps to accommodate Progressive Load
HST suggests that you use 2 week blocks for each rep range. Why? It has nothing to do with adaptation. It is simply a way to accommodate the ever increasing load. Of course, you could adjust your reps every week (e.g. 15,12,10,8,5,etc),



Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
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Im suggesting you increment weight until you reach your 15 rep max @ however many sets you've set as your target, once you reach it, you stop.  Either SD or move to the 10's.  This is identical to what HST suggests, Im just opening up the possibility that it will take more than two weeks to reach your, for example, 15 rep max, as everyone and their brother thats done a few cycles, is guessing.  Im also introducing the idea that we take an SD between mesocycles.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">HST suggests that you use 2 week blocks for each rep range. Why? It has nothing to do with adaptation. It is simply a way to accommodate the ever increasing load. Of course, you could adjust your reps every week (e.g. 15,12,10,8,5,etc), </div>

Imagine trying to draw 15's, 10's, or 5's out for more than two weeks while increasing the load every workout and you can see why 1-2 weeks is probably the most you will spend in a particular rep range. You'd have to start with 50% of your RM instead of the 70-75% we normally do. You would feel like you were lifting hollow weights for the first week.
 
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(BIZ @ Mar. 09 2007,01:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">HST suggests that you use 2 week blocks for each rep range. Why? It has nothing to do with adaptation. It is simply a way to accommodate the ever increasing load. Of course, you could adjust your reps every week (e.g. 15,12,10,8,5,etc), </div>

Imagine trying to draw 15's, 10's, or 5's out for more than two weeks while increasing the load every workout and you can see why 1-2 weeks is probably the most you will spend in a particular rep range.   You'd have to start with 50% of your RM instead of the 70-75% we normally do.  You would feel like you were lifting hollow weights for the first week.</div>
You make a point but Ive covered that one already and its why its would likely take more than two weeks.  If youve done more than one HST cycle, odds are your estimating your 15/10's and they are easily achieved, there is room for error here.

I also suggested a person could use a given poundage for two consecutive workouts, this would double your cycles total time, in the least it would be a four week cycle but we both know that odd are it would last longer to reach your RM.

Question for you might be, what makes you think two weeks would be insufficient?  As neural learning shouldnt be a major concern, as you should have at least done one HST cycle before trying this.

I was thinking roughly three weeks per mini cycle, in the least, incrementing poundage per workout.  As it would take two weeks to reach your estimated RM, and wouldnt be unreasonable to take another week, following normal increments, to reach your true RM.  Although, if you were to hit it within two weeks, then SD, Im not so sure that would matter.  As there is a difference between performing a routine, as you feel it should be performed and performing a routine, based on whats happening with your body.



Im not getting it, I see what IM saying clear as day, and it seems to be as close to the basic HST as any program could be, yet it seems foreign to everyone...

think we have a failure to communicate, and Im probably guilty.  
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need2eat, I've probably missed something you've said already (sorry) but what's the big deal about reaching your true RMs for each mesocycle before the last part of a cycle?
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