Once a day with heavy weights

M

Martin Levac

New Member
I've become stronger since I began in march. I feel like the light weights are doing little for me at this time. I want to go with heavy weights and progress the load in a seesaw fashion. Since the weight is heavy, it does two things: Higher recruitment percentage and higher CNS load. But it is my understanding that it also stimulates a little bit more growth than lighter weights. I want to do the big three once a day, every day. The way I see it, I don't need to do as much as with lighter weights so I could do 5-10 reps.

So my question is, have any of you done heavy weights once a day everyday and if so, what are the details such as workout duration, number of exercises, number of reps, etc? And how long did you keep it up, a month, two, more?

I am concerned with fuel (glycogen) capacity and consumption and replenishment rates. I want to avoid running out of fuel during a workout especially since I will be working out more frequently. I'm also concerned with CNS load and recovery.

Thank you.
 
if i understand correctly, your basic plan is to lift the big 3 (deadlift,squat,bench??),heavy, everyday, for at least a couple weeks, maybe longer.

never attempted that (or thought to try) so im afraid i cant help with your questions about how to do it but just a few thoughts.

"ive become stronger since i began in march. i feel like the light wgts are doing little for me."
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?

no one lifts light wgts(relative)....to lift light wgts. its all about recovery, repair, progressive load and preparing your muscles for greater loads over time.

2 months is not that long, shouldnt you be in the 5s or beyond by now or are you starting a new cycle.

lifting heavy everyday (same exer) will kill your strength, ability to recover, CNS, etc etc. there are plenty of hard core power w/o out there that use a lot of wgt and volume and have produced some good results. check the posts by sci muscle and steve jones as i know theve looked into many of them. i dont recall simply lifting the big 3 heavy everyday week after week being one of them.

hopefully some other folks will chime in as well, if not you can always give it shot. i dont think it will take too many days in a row for you to find out if its do-able

good luck
 
you will lose strength, burn out your nerves, destroy muscle tissue and eventually get seriously injured.
If you want to focus on training heavy with the big three. I would recommend benching twice/week and squatting/deadliftign once/week.

Like this:
Monday-
Squat-
warm-up sets, then ramp up weight to a few really heavy top sets. ramping up will let you get some volume in.
accessory work optional (abs, leg curls, extensions, etc.)

Tuesday-
Bench-
same as squat, warm-up then ramp up weights to a few heavy top sets
accesory work- rows, chins, tricep work etc.

Thursday-
Deadlift-
same thing warm-up , then ramp up to top set.
accessory- hams, lower back, traps, biceps

Friday-
Bench again.
 
What are your goals? Are you training primarily for size or strength? If you are training for size as a natty then do an HST program. You can miss out the 15s if you want to start heavier but your cycle will then be a couple of weeks shorter. No big deal, but it's a good idea to add 15s in every so often as it's good for your joints.

If your volume is low and the loads are high you could train the big three every day but, as the others have pointed out, there is a price to pay. Once your CNS is fatigued you will find that your strength drops off. It's not your muscle tissue that is the problem, it's just that you can't get the motor units to fire because your CNS is fatigued so you can't lift as much and, therefore, the strain on the tissue is less so the growth stimulus is reduced. RBE catches up with you quickly and you get nowhere. If you back off volume too far, to try to avoid as much fatigue as possible, you end up never elevating PS because you haven't done enough work to trigger a response (ie. there's a minimum amount of volume required to elicit a growth response). It would seem that most folks can train 'heavy' 2 or 3 times a week (that's each body part) and see results. Three times a week may not be better than twice a week, especially if you are looking for immediate strength gains (CNS fatigue issues again). That's how I see it anyway.

If you are after hypertrophy, I'd stick to a straight forward HST progression but just focus on the big 3 as Sci suggested – one main exercise per session. You could do 6 days in a row, then take one day off and repeat (ie. each main compound twice a week) or you could do 2 days on, 1 day off, 2 days on etc. (ie. each main compound twice every 8 days).
 
Thanks for the replies but none of them help me any. None of them are representative of what I'm about to do. Please be aware that I will do a maximum of 10 reps per exercise per workout or a total of 30 reps per workout. I don't warm up or ramp up or anything like that, I go directly to the work load.

What's that about the minimum volume required, Lol? I haven't read that in the HST manual anywhere. Also, sci-mu, advising me to do warm up sets (here I emphasize multiple) then ramping up to the work sets (here I emphasize multiple sets again) is not a very good advice when the advice just before that was that if I trained heavy every day I'd kill my strength, destroy muscle, blah blah, etc. In essense, sci-mu, you're telling me I'm going to burn myself out and then tell me to go right ahead and burn myself out, just less often.

I want a second opinion, one based on personal experience, preferably. Thanks again.
 
Martin

I would not just go ahead "half cocked"
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Sci has experience and that is why he suggest what he does.

Here's my opinion for what its worth:

You can train heavy say 6x week, however certain exercises are not exactly good to do every day, namely the squats/Deadlifts as they tend to take a lot out of you!

To train heavy 6x week you have to spread the volume over the time span available re: the 6 days, so your workouts will be short and sweet but heavy.

Considering all of this, I'd say:

Deads maximum 2x p/week
Squats 3x
Bench can be done daily.

This leaves some gaps, which if I were you I'd fill in with Chinups/dips/rows/OH presses etc.

Strictly speaking there are possibilities of doing a very brief HST workout including say 5 to 6 exercises, maybe a little more and then working out 6x week.

Just my 2 cents worth!
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(scientific muscle @ May 23 2007,00:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">you will lose strength, burn out your nerves, destroy muscle tissue and eventually get seriously injured.</div>
Basically, you will die! lol

In all seriousness though...

You want experience so here it goes. Back in high school, all our coaches had us do for football was bench, squat, power cleans. I guess for this explanation you could substitute your DL's for the cleans. Looking back, I realize that it was a lot like HST. We would max out to see what our 1RM was, then start working out at 65%, then move up percentages as the weeks went on until we reached 100%. We did this M-W-F.

You know what? It worked. My strength went up a ton, I gained about 5-7 pounds of straight LBM in about 2 months. Then I got cocky. I would cheat the system because I thought anything less than 75% was too easy for me. So I lifted heavy everyday thinking I knew better than everyone else. And where did it get me? I actually started getting weaker because I was lifting so heavy everyday. I actually lost weight... I felt tired all the time... etc. etc.

So I'm not exactly sure of what your goals are, but if you are looking to gain size and strength... certainly your Big 3 can get you both. However, going &quot;heavy&quot; if by that you mean 75% plus all the time, you are doomed to bottom out eventually.

As for sci's advice about warming up and ramping into your top sets... he is absolutely on the target IMHO. Think about it in a practical scenario. Let's say you want to lift 300 lbs on dl's as your &quot;working sets&quot;. Going straight to the bar and doing that is not the best idea. He isn't saying that you should go 1 set of 290, 1 set of 295, then hit 300. You need to WARM up... get your muscles flowing with oxygen-rich blood. You can do this with very low weights. So let's go back to the 300 lb. example. You could warm up with simply the bar to get a little loose. Then slap on 135 for a few reps. Then a couple more reps of 225. Then put on the 300. Are you going to be &quot;too fatigued&quot; for 300? Absolutely not. And if you are, you shouldn't be doing 300.

Long post, but hope that helps explain a few things.
 
To follow up on my post...

You need to cycle through with &quot;lighter weights&quot; every now and then. HST is designed with a injury-prevention aspect to it at the beginning of the cycles. You are basically doing a large-scale warm up getting ready for your heavy weights later on in the cycle. You can't simply SD, and go straight to the heavy stuff. Your muscles, tendons, ligaments.. etc. etc. simply won't be ready for it.
 
GatorDude. No, I don't need to warm up. I still want to know how many reps, workout duration, etc. I can understand why you'd be tired all the time if you trained for too long each time: You'd run out of fuel with the obvious and the not so obvious consequences. Did you cut your workout in half when you cheated or did you go on with the regular workout but twice as often?

We now know that it is not volume that stimulates growth, it's mechanical load, frequency and load progression. Therefore, it is quite reasonable to workout more frequently but with less volume. Do not equate less volume to lighter weights. What we know about heavy weight training tells us that because of the heavy weights' effect on the CNS, we must reduce the volume. But, since we work with heavy weights, MU recruitment percentage is much higher than with lighter weights which is probably what causes the higher CNS load in the first place. Therefore, much fewer repetitions are required to stimulate equal growth. Additionally, since we work with heavy weights, RBE takes longer to set in. So, we can work with heavy weights more often and for much longer than with lighter weights before the load stimulates no more growth.

All I must be concerned with at this time is CNS and fatigue management.

I read quite a bit about strength training, HST and training in general and I found so few mention of fuel capacity, consumption and replenishment rates. I think it's much more important than it appears. Also, I haven't read much about how the CNS gets fatigued and why it gets fatigued so all I have to go on is my understanding of it. The way I see it, it works just like anything else in my body, it runs on fuel. So when it runs out of fuel, it can't work properly. I equate fatigue to running out of fuel, it's simple, I can work with that. The alternative is that the CNS does not consume or store fuel and it gets fatigued some other way.

Back to you, Dave.
 
Martin,

I didn't cut the workout in half, nor did I do it twice as often.  I did the Big 3, 3 times a week.. using +75% of my 1RM the entire time... often times higher than 80%.  I think that qualifies a scenario much like you are considering... heavy weights, every workout.  It was much too long ago to remember rep/set schemes, but I always tried to use the maximum weight I could to follow the reps and sets we were supposed to.  It worked about as well as a woman trying to fix a car, my results went backwards.

So from what I gather, you are deadset on simply using by your definition &quot;heavy weights&quot; on every workout.  Your answer for how many reps and workout duration are already answered.  You will be doing 5's for an entire cycle, and your duration will take quite awhile if you are really doing heavy weight for your standards as you will need some adequate rest between sets to handle the heavy loads.  Your cycle will probably not last anymore than 4-5 weeks as you will be burnt out by the end.  

It's all about cause and effect.  Why does HST put it's lower reps at the end of a cycle?  To make up for the maximal loads that are being used by the time one gets there.  Since you are basically skipping low-moderate weights, you will skip 15's and 10's because I guarantee you that if you are really using HEAVY weight you won't be able to do much more than 5 reps for too long anyways.

Anyways, best of luck with your workout.  While I disagree with your point of view of not warming up, it's your workout so do what you want.  I'm pretty certain you will quickly see why most people do warm up.
 
You can't lift very heavy with the big three every day, unless you are a total newbie and very weak...then it might work ok for a short period of time. Obviously you are a newbie, since you don'y have the experience to see this.
It has nothing to do with volume. The stress of max effort high-intensity lifting tears muscle tissue and taxes the nervous system heavily.

I say go ahead and try it, because that is the only way you'll learn. Obviously you are too stubborn to listen to more experienced lifters.

Just ask a powerlifter like stevejones to do his 5 rep max with deadlift bench and squat every day for days on end. He would laugh at you and ignore it, because if he did that he would just destroy his body quickly with the enormous loads he uses.
 
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(Martin Levac @ May 23 2007,08:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks for the replies but none of them help me any. None of them are representative of what I'm about to do. Please be aware that I will do a maximum of 10 reps per exercise per workout or a total of 30 reps per workout. I don't warm up or ramp up or anything like that, I go directly to the work load.

What's that about the minimum volume required, Lol? I haven't read that in the HST manual anywhere. Also, sci-mu, advising me to do warm up sets (here I emphasize multiple) then ramping up to the work sets (here I emphasize multiple sets again) is not a very good advice when the advice just before that was that if I trained heavy every day I'd kill my strength, destroy muscle, blah blah, etc. In essense, sci-mu, you're telling me I'm going to burn myself out and then tell me to go right ahead and burn myself out, just less often.

I want a second opinion, one based on personal experience, preferably. Thanks again.</div>
I have some limited ( as in duration wise ) experience with what you are proposing. I have used &quot;similar&quot; ( term used loosely ) albiet VERY short term routines for &quot;planned over-reaching&quot; ( about all they are good for). The theory being that by BREIFLY overtraining to the point of a 15-20% drop of 1rm on the lifts followed by an extensive de-load phase ( allowing time for the strength results of the over reaching to manifest) a short jump in limit strength and conditioning can be reached, by itself it is NOT an efficient &quot;plan&quot; but a shock technique .


What you are proposing is a very inefficient way to progress , basically if I understand correctly - you will be doing a 1x10 using the big three 7x/wk. It would follow that the only variable would be load ( linear progression at its simplest). If you feel determined to do it this way I dont really see the harm , you will discover without any real permenant harm in about 9-14 days ( possibly a bit more depending on starting load %age of 1rm and conditioning) that this was not the brightest idea you've ever had ( at least lets hope so!!!).


With some modification a tweaked version of this would work better (still not optimal), Deadlifts will be the most obvious problem ( you'll be walking like an old geezer by day 9 unless your loads are laughable). You would last longer by cutting thier frequency right off the top , it would be more sustainable and give much better strength gains to do your deads 1x/wk or no sooner than 5 days apart.


Actually I'm going to stop right there - I just caught that you started in march for gods sakes! Dude that was 2 months ago! If you feel up to it check out a good 10x3 progression ( &quot;the waterbury method&quot; can be found by a simple google) , A 2 month old lifter will for sure find this challenging enough and biuld some strength very quickly (loads start at 85% 1rm ).


I understand your frustration - HST can be tricky for those below a certain strength level as the begining loads will be ridiculous, just last night I attempted to enter a program into the HST calculator for my daughter , who's lack of strength as a rank noob had her starting push press at 2 lbs for the 15's according to the calculator! Obviously she would do better to build strength first until able to build to a point that allows for a more effecient HST cycle.


My advice would be 10x3 ( although a bit advanced ) NOT a strict 10x3 but the one I cited above would for sure get you going towards where you want to go ( it uses a 10x3 for one rotating exersize each W/O the rest are 4x6 till thier turn for 10x3).



Patience young grasshopper!!!
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I could see his plan working with the overreaching system: but it's totally a moot point for someone new. Overreaching is something that only a lifter who's not able to gain any more by linear progression would be good for.
You don't put your 16 year old daughter in a Maserati with her first driver's license do you? She'll do fine in her volkswagen.

OTOH, I like that fact that this guy is studying and thinking. Kudos for that.
 
sci-mu, I am stubborn, not stupid. I listen to reasonable advice, not &quot;all out end of the world&quot; advice. I learn on my own, I don't know of any other way. In fact, I am the only person that can learn on my own, nobody else can do it for me. I could learn from others' experience, which is what I've been asking from post 1. But I have yet to read about others' experience about the matter. What I do read about is speculation and opinions about possible results and whatnots, nothing too serious in my opinion.

GatorDude, you wrote that you first trained 3 times a week then you wrote that you cheated by training every day and as a result of that, you lost strength, etc. That's what I was refering to when I asked if you kept the same workout every day or if you cut it in half to allow for the higher frequency.

I understand why the &quot;model&quot; HST program is the way it is. I want to do a different program yet still adhere to the HST principles, namely load, load progression and frequency. If you read those same principles, you will find that the muscle responds to a change in load both up and down. Therefore, progressing in a seesaw fashion still adheres to the principles even though the upward progression is not as emphasized as in the model HST program. As such, it is quite reasonable to lift heavy and progress from there.

(About my &quot;Member rating&quot;, I figure it must be linked to &quot;report post&quot; function. I ask you all a favor, please bring mine down to none to get it over with and get on with the rest. Thank you.)
 
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(Martin Levac @ May 22 2007,22:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I feel like the light weights are doing little for me at this time.</div>
Feeling is irrelevant. What's important is: did you SD beforehand? What percentage of your RMs did you start at?

Obviously if you did something stupid and started with less than 50% of your RMs or skipped SD, then yeah, the lighter weights are going to do nothing.

I can't speak about your proposed system from personal experience because I would never try such a thing, so... guess I can't give any advice that you would actually listen to.
 
In post 4 I submitted scinetific research demonstrating that training heavy 5 times/week results in performance losses.
That is even more convincing than someone who tried it...many subjects tried it in that study and were observed by scientists taking measurements. So I gave you the answer you were looking for.
And yes, I have tried it....only I tried 3 times/week. It doesn't work. I lost strength immediately. Even 3 times/week on the big lifts is too much for me if the weights are near my 5 rm or higher.

If you want to do nothing but the big three, try this program, it is 3 days/week instead of everyday and the weights used are light until the last 4 weeks when each lift is done heavy ONCE/week. And even then this program is brutal and many people can't even finish it.
Korte's program
 
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(Martin Levac @ May 22 2007,22:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've become stronger since I began in march...</div>
So what you've done in the last 2 months has worked, then why do you want to go away from a successful system!

Everybody has provided good advice. A program needs to build on what's happened at the last session. Just tiring yourself out won't do anything.

I system that could work which you might want to try (I've never tried it) which is on Poliquin's website is this:
- Take 4 compound excercises
- Lift 5 days a week
- Take your 77.5% max on each lift, this is your week 1 weight
- Day 1 lift this weight 5 times, with a 1 minute rest between each lift. I.e squat once, rack the bar, weight 1 minute then repeat. Do all 4 excercises.
- Day 2 is the same as day except you lift it 7 times.
- Day 3 the same except 9 times
- Day 4 do 11 times
- Day 5 do 13 times
- Day 6 and 7 rest
- Week 2 do the same as week 1 except at 80% of your max
- Week 3 do 82.5% of your max
- Week 4 do 85% of your max
- Week 5 you don't do this anymore as you'll burn out

I wouldn't choose deadlifts for this program as it'll be too hard on your back.
 
I'm aware of some lifters that do a &quot;one lift a day&quot; routine - if planned correctly (exersize order) this is a feasable way  to get your 7x/wk frequency in without rapid stall out. Thing is -most guys I know doing this are over 45 , with basic fitness goals, it's not anywhere near the optimum for any goals I could imagine anyone as fiesty as yourself having.


        One glaring ommission from your plan is some form of row/lat/rhomboid pull ( I recomend BB rows  ) Your bench will stall out soon enough with out them no matter what plan you use. If you are lucky it will be W/O injury.Unfortunately deads (as I have a feeling you'll soon learn) cant be done with the same frequency as bench so this will not balance benching leading to strength imbalance - if you want to bench big you've pretty much got to come to terms with rows.
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The thing that you are not understanding is... that by doing this workout that you have in mind (an extended maximal load workout), you will NOT be following HST because you simply can NOT progressively load time after time by using weight that is so close to your maxes. Considering you have been training for what, 2 months? You have absolutely no need to do even try this.

You say that no one has given you any experiences of their own? I'm pretty sure mine was pinpoint on what you want to do. And yeah, your experiences are what counts, but to save you from having to waste a few weeks in the gym, and to possibly keep you from injury.. you shouldn't be doing this workout. When I did what you are considering, my load went in reverse.

Simply put, if I really didn't care about what happens to you then I wouldn't have gone out of my way to convince you to not do this workout... I would have let the injuries and setbacks do it for me.
 
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