Not using load


Active Member
Just curious. Say if all you had were 45 pounds dumbells and you did these say for 3 sets for chest everyday for a year? Would we get hypertrophy???

Just curious what the science say behind not increasing load and say not eating enough calories...I know that in the past I have not done enough of both until I got into HST?
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Joe.Muscle @ Oct. 01 2005,10:25)]Just curious. Say if all you had were 45 pounds dumbells and you did these say for 3 sets for chest everyday for a year? Would we get hypertrophy???
Yes, at first if untrained.

In time you would need to increase work(W=ForceXDistance) output in order to continue. You could get away with using more distance for a while but eventually the force factor of work would need to be increased.

Just intuitively you see this all the time, look at carpenters who swing a hammer all day. Initially they gain size in but soon they stop even though they drive more nails in a day. Now if they would increase the weight of the hammer growth would start again, then stall.

Moss et al showed that work induced hypertrophy is a factor. When comparing loads of 15%-35%-90% of 1RM with a rep count strategy of 10 for 15%-7 for 35%-2 for 90%, the 35% 1RM showed more hypertrophy than the 15 or 90 over a multi week trial. Their rationalization was that the difference in work (35% 1RM had 70% and 45% more than either the 90% or 15% respectively) output caused it. But what they don't show is what would happen when this was carried forward for longer durations above the 9 week trial.
Thanks DKM I can always rely on your knowledge and not to worry you to death with question but just one more...its a little off topic but here goes.

My wife and I are expecting our first child and even though we dont know the sex if its a boy I would like to get him into fitness when he is young...say around 10 or 11. Now I know that as a child heavy lifting is not good for growth plates, but I was thinking imagine how good of shape for life, and sports I would of been in if I had started working out at a young age. I actually had a friend who started at 12 and by 18 he was a monster.

Is there any studies showing if and when kids can start training? I was thinking around 10 or 11 just to teach my son maybe basic pushups and pullups just basic bodyweight exercises, I wouldnt think that would be bad for there health.

Just curious with your knowledge of the science I am sure you have ran across the studies own this.


First off, why don't you let your kid decide for himself if he wants to be a weight lifter/athlete? If it is something he shows interest in, then worry about it.
Yes there is some research out there on kids. If you know how to use Pub med do a search for Westcott, once you find his I am sure he has done work with others too.
Thanks DKM will do!

Second Babya no he has no choice what so ever!!!

He will be forced to go to the dungeon everyday and lift lift and lift!

My goodness you make it sound like i was going to slave drive the kid
If I remember correctly his intitials are WL, also look up Liligard (spelling may be wrong as it's been a while since I looked up efficacy concerning children). There were a couple of Metas on this also but I don't remember who did them, maybe someone else does.

Good Luck

And take it easy on the kid Huh? ;)
The real kick in the pants there would be getting the kid to lift weights as early as nine, then he actually likes it, then he's a monster by 18, and then he goes to you one night and confesses, "Papa Joe.Muscle... even though I'm a pure 100% brute force monster outside, inside I'm... I'm gay and I'm in love with our football team captain!"

Just kidding Joe! How's your training been?

Regards and happy lifting,
And before I forget, Joe, this time I'm serious, hehehe, no more gay son jokes or what  :D

Besides increasing distance, you can also get away with not increasing the load. Here's what to remember.

For an object in tension, tensile stress is the ratio of the force (F) to the cross-sectional area (A). Mathematically:
S = F/A (force divided by area)
F =ma (mass x acceleration)
a = (v2 - v1) / (t2 - t1)

increase stress = increase force, decrease area
ex.,  10=20/2,    20=40/2,   20=20/1

increase force = increase mass, increase acceleration
ex., 10=5x2,  20=10x2, 20=5x4

increase acceleration = increase delta velocity, decrease delta time
ex. 100=200/2 [e.g., (200-0)/(2-0)]
    200=400/2 [e.g., (400-0)/(2-0)]
    200=200/1 [e.g., (200-0)/(1-0)]

increase in delta velocity = greater final velocity (assuming initial velocity is zero)
ex., 200 = 200 - 0,    400 = 400 - 0

decrease in delta time = lesser final time (assuming initial time is zero)
ex., 2 = 2-0,  1=1-0

To increase stress= less time, more speed (increase acceleration), increase mass

Doing the reps of whatever faster also increases force production, despite the load remaining constant. Of course, actually applying that is tricky. The eccentric should be slow and controlled, otherwise you end up swiniging the weights using momentum. The only thing you can increase is the speed of the concentric motion, but take care not to go too ast that the form is sloppy and you end up injuring yourself.

This, like simply increasing distance (# of reps), is by far very very inefficient compared to progressive load. But it is possible, for what it's worth.

Good luck with your baby, hope it turns out to be a son

Ok, I admit it I'm lost with that JV,

If you are saying force(tension) increases with speed? No, it doesn't.
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Oct. 02 2005,4:55)]Ok, I admit it I'm lost with that JV,
If you are saying force(tension) increases with speed? No, it doesn't.
I think JV is demonstrating the reasoning behind using compensatory acceleration. Accelerating the weight upward increases the level of force on the muscles. If the weight is accelerated during a certain time interval (delta time), at the end of the time interval the weight will be moving with a greater speed than it would be if it weren't accelerated. So, it's not the speed that matters, but rathre it's the change in speed that matters.

[b said:
Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Oct. 02 2005,7:55)]Ok, I admit it I'm lost with that JV,
If you are saying force(tension) increases with speed? No, it doesn't.
I was thinking of the force applied on it, and so were the examples. Now that I look at them, they do seem vague. They're nothing complicated at all. It's only elementary physics I took right from my book, I just didn't label them enough, just typed them in a rush, sorry.

(And yeah, "Speed", velocity, isn't what changes tension. That would be saying F=mv, which is under Aristotle. We civilized modern people already follow Netwon, F=ma, acceleration, not velocity, so the rep speed itslef is not our concern)

For muscles, I chose the tensile stress model because it was simpler, and seeing as to how in tension they were.

We aren't actually increasing "speed" itslef, only the acceleration is actually important, but there's no way to do that without increasing speed (but that's not meaning the reps and sets will have to be faster as a whole movement). Since acceleration is what matters, it can be applied or demonstrated without much problem. We slow down the eccentric as needed, stop a little at the end (you don't even have to notice it actually, we simply do so as a habit since we avoid using momentum to swing the weights), giving us a starting velocity (for the concentric motion) of zero. Increasing the acceleration is obviously reaching a higher speed by the end of the motion - or at least somewhere along the motion, most naturally near the end. Comparing that is easy. If it takes you 1 second versus 2 seconds to complete the concentric part, you most probably have a greater acceleration. Same load, different acceleration. In effect, greater force is needed. (It's like the relationship of power and mass. More power is needed to move a certain mass in less time, less power needed if the time is longer - given of course that we are talking of the same distance in both cases.) The reps (and consequently also the sets) can be (as one whole movement) faster or slower, whatever you decide, as long as the acceleration is increased, which is what will produce greater force and a little more peak tension. Considering TTI is a different matter, since all we're concerned about here (I mean in this particular discussion) is increasing force, which is a tricky matter if you don't change the load.

I'm thinking more in physics, so that was what initially registered to me when you mentioned the formula for work. You can increase force by increasing acceleration. This only applies for the concentric part. It does increase peak tension by doing it faster there. Not in the eccentric.

You may (but shouldn't really) look at it in another point of view that may be simpler to understand (still physics though, sorry, I'm actually trying to forget that book, but you know what they say about every first thing that you've done). Increasing your acceleration makes you apply a greater force on anything (relative to a slower same thing you apply, for example, a punch or a kick). In this case we apply a force on a bar with weights attached to it. The force we apply on it is of course applied back to us, Newton's third law, and so our muscles get the same force applied on them which is of course spread evenly on their cross-sectional area (A). The more force you apply on it, the more force is applied to you. This model won't really hold so well, since not all the force applied will always be actually become force applied on the muscles only (and remember, you aren't always rock solid, so treat some force as "dissipated" when your body moves a little or is pushed back a little; also, actually applying tension force model here would be a little complicated since muscles involved are far from being massless ropes that are commonly used to simplify problems in physics that I'm sure you all remember one time or another. And, it's not really just the weightlifter-and-barbell system that we actually have to look at; like the regular college stumper of the "horse-and-cart" problem, we have to look at whatever we're gounded on during a lot of lifts.)

If you are already doing the concentric part as fast as you can, there is no way you can probably do this. But if you find that you are actually doing it a little slower, and you do all those mighty number of reps (again assuming we don't increase the load) and you hit your plateau, you can increase force and so tension by increasing your acceleration. This here is just peak tension. If you want TUL (other than increasing your already numerous reps we assumed), you can perhaps stop also at the top of the movement, or slow down the eccentric more, or whatever you can think of.

So we aren't actually really increasing the reps speed or "making the reps faster". Faster or slower, whatever you decide, as long as you increase the acceleration.
Hi Navigator!

I was just about to mention you as I remember you are also a physicist. (I'm not exactly a physicist, I was a few years ago, but I'm trying to just forget that, hehehe)

Sorry, I was busily typing my explanatory response that was woefully long, that by the time it was over, you already got in a message to explain. Thanks!

Well, Dan, I hope that clears things up! It's my fault really, I didn't label the stuff enough, sometimes I do forget to properly label things.

Thanks guys for the science! :D

and for the record I just want a healthy child dont care if girl or boy!

Its just that I believe there are two major issue with America

Issue 1 is we are the most in debt country in the world and I am a financial advisor so I can help the child with that I hope...

and Issue # 2 is we are the most Obese country in the world
right now the stats are 75% of america is overweight so hopeufully I can help with that issue also!

Cheers from the humble slave

Hey Joe, just my two cents.

I have three children, two of my own and one stepdaugther. My stepdaughter is 10, my son is 4 and my daughter is 2. I find that working out at home around the children has gotten them all very interested in fitness. Obviously the two youngest can't do any serious weight training yet, but they are growing up with the interest in it. My son tries to imitate me, but I don't let him pick up anything too heavy... still, the boy is strong as hell for a four year old.
So if you want your children to be interested in fitness, just expose them to it. Let them be a part of that part of your life.

Oh... and from what I have read, weight training isn't bad for the growth plates as long as the children train intelligently - don't use weight that is more than they can handle, don't train carelessly, etc.

You right on the money too!

I have a seven year old who loves to hang around when I am training and I can bet my bottom dollar he will start as soon as he can, sometimes I let him do a thing or two.

He is also dang strong and packs one hell of a punch!

I have used my middle one (9 years old) when I was short of time to arrange dumbells heavy enough to chin with, so I used him instead (29 Kgs) he was delighted, although more the studious type he also enjoys hanging arund and copying dad!

The oldest one (15), does not do too bad, I had him bench his body weight 50 Kg and he has even benched 60 kg when pushed to do so (coercing
not slavedriving), the other day he had his buddies over for a bar-b-que and guess what, a benching competition ensued...

Needless to say I was surprised by some of the kids abilities and knowledge, one of them kept telling the others, "do only three reps, that way you will be strong enough to try heavier weight", and we kept going, three of them went up to 80 kgs for three. :D
It is great to expose your children to weight lifting. I begin weight training because my father competed in bodybuilding and I always fascinated with the way people admired him.

And talk about forcing physics into that question that really didn't apply to anything...cmon...

Joe G
Fausto and Totentaz I think that is awesome.

My wife and I are building our dream home in about a year and a half. We have just finished the plans and after we get the house arranged properly I want to slowly start building my own gym. I have never had the right equipment to workout in the house, I did have a bowflex once..however now that I have been doing HST for over a year. I have learned so much and I can see were if I had a gym at home I could decrease my training time and up my frequency and have the best of both worlds...more time with family and better physique.

Thanks guys again for the input!

There is some good tips for exercise equipment already on board by the time you need them that is...

Sonny seems to have bought some "lekker" equipment and not so expensive.

Lekker = nice/awsome/great, in afrikaans coloquial

Workout equipment link

Check it out!