How FATS work?

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by SoyBean, Oct 30, 2002.

  1. SoyBean

    SoyBean New Member

    Does anybody know in which ratios one should eat fats: monounsatured, polyunsatured,GLA, Omega 3/6 ... to get the best hormonal response and overall results?? Should I take the fats alone or with carbs or proteins to minimize fat gains?:confused: And what about the serving sizes?

    Other interesting question: how long does it take the fat to enter blood stream and affect hormones if I take, say 20-30g, some vegetable oil now?

    Ps. How did I get my hardest biceps pump ever?? with fatty peanuts :)
     
  2. vicious

    vicious New Member

    Try Planterol. It works like Synthol except the leakage tastes good on fries. :)

    Ratios

    Paleontholic data suggests mankind's (dom dom dom dom . . . ) diet was 1:1 n6:n3 until 200 years ago, 2:1 n6:n3 100 years ago, and 40-200:1 in the modern age of Mickey Death.

    However, mankind (dom! dom!) didn't get omega 3 from flax, but fish and animals raised in a wild, non-grain diet, both which naturally have high concentration of long-chain n3 in their fat. (Animals raised on grain feed have negligible N3.) The N3 in flax and other plant oils are short-chain and need to go through a conversion (rate is about 2.5%) into long-chain to be really useful.

    Both N3 and N6 are polyunsaturated fats. Vegetable oils, except olive oil, have high amount of polyunsaturated fats, virtually all in N6. Vegetable oils (except olive oil) are bad if they're refined because much of the N6 has been oxidized into trans fatty acids.

    Unrefined vegetable oils is good if eaten in small amounts. However, unless you're lean, you get most N6 acids from stored bodyfat. So extra virgin olive oil should be your base fat source.

    Most recommend a ratio of 1:1 to 4:1 n6:n3. Animal fat has very low amounts of polyunsaturated fat. If you use olive oil as your base, than all you need is a teaspoon of flax or 3-4 grams of fish oil.

    Some BBers get zealous about taking in flax or N3 in general. This may not be a good idea because polyunsaturated fats get oxidized and turn into free radicals. You can take an antioxidant to combat this, but it's probably better to just take only enough EFAs.

    EPA/DHA

    EPA dosages should start at 500mg. I take in 1800mg of EPA, which is what Barry Sears recommends and what most studies use. I feel that 500mg is just too low. The changes at 1800mg from a health point of view is tangible and immediate -- better concentration, better moods, better sleep, better workouts. If you have money, going for 1800mg is well worth the investment.

    Many fish oil products have contaminants or are rancid (the N3s are oxidized.) Both can do more harm than good. Buy fish oil that has been molecular distilled or has a pharmacudetical grade. You will know it's good fish oil if it tastes "clean", is gentle on your stomach, and doesn't leave fish breath.

    I'd recommend pharmacudetical grade. Just 3 capsules gives you 1800mg EPA and has much higher concentrations of DHA. It is however more expensive.

    Too much EPA isn't a good thing, though. Too high levels of EPA can lead to internal bleeding and can depress the immune response. Also, EPA can decrease DGLA production too much, which can lead to other problems (such as dry skin.) Which leads to . . .

    GLA

    GLA increases DGLA production, which leads to eicasanoids, which leads to your hormonal profile. It's said to activate BAT metabolism but no study has stated this effect was significant. Like EPA, the effects can be felt within a day, particularly by your skin. Your body produces GLA (roughly 250mg - 1 gram), though less so the leaner and older you become. Moreover, your ethnicity affects GLA production.

    GLA ought to be taken with EPA, Some suggest the ratio ought to be 4:1 epa:gla. Some suggest 1:1 epa:gla. Some say start with 15mg. Other say start with 150mg.

    Confusing really. Omega-3 (EPA or flax oil) dries up my skin. I fussed over ratio until I added GLA., and it fixed my problem. In fact, if I take in enough GLA, I can emulate my oily teenage years. :)

    Get GLA from evening primrose oil.

    Timing

    I wouldn't worry about this too much. I eat most of my fat with my protein, but that's more out of convenience. There's some disagreement about how much carbs and fat should be eaten for energy.

    cheers,
    Jules
     
  3. SPE

    SPE New Member

    Where do you get your fish oil Jules?
     
  4. vicious

    vicious New Member

    I was ordering from searslabs (very expensive.) But I found pharmacudetical grade fish oil at netrition for $25 fper month's supply (@ 1800mg EPA.)

    Phara-grade Fish Oil

    Whatever fish oil you buy, make sure there is no cholesterol in it. Cholesterol-free fish oil means that it has gone through the distillation process to remove PCBs and mercury. Twinlabs has cholesterol in it.

    cheers,
    Jules
     
  5. NightOp

    NightOp New Member

    there is a good article at http://weightrainer.virtualave.net/ (articles, nutrition, "fats article"..... to find it).. basically affirms what vicious said as well as some additional "hows".
     
  6. cilius

    cilius New Member

    Nice post guys, nutritional aspects of training is always interesting to read ;)
     
  7. job561

    job561 New Member

    Good link for more information on fats:

    http://www.fatsforhealth.com/newsletter/archive.php3

    Those who are interested in taking a good, "all-in-one" oil product should consider "Perfected Oil Blend" made by Udo Erasmus.

    Each tablespoon contains"

    6.4 grams Omega-3's
    3.2 grams Omega-6's
    3.0 grams Omega-9's

    The ingredients list reads:

    Flax oil, sunflower oil, sesame oil, medium chain triglycerides, rice germ and bran oil, oat germ and bran oil, evening primrose oil (13mg of GLA per tablespoon), soy lecithin, rosemary extract, tocotrienol.
     
  8. restless

    restless New Member

    Great post.
    Jules said everything worth saying and all I have to add is to consider cod liver oil as a source of omega 3. It's cheaper than salmon, very high in omega 3 and up to four tablespoons of it will still leave you well below the toxic dose of vitamin A, in case you were getting ready to mention that. :D
     
  9. nathan

    nathan New Member

    Good post, Jules. I saw PBL's pharmaceutical-grade fish oil capsules on the Netrition Web site, too. Does anyone know anything about them? I'm skeptical of labeling by companies I've never heard of. Are they trustworthy? Will I actually get the high concentration of EPA listed on the label?

    [I should say that I'm also skeptical because, according to their Web site, they make chrysin, methoxyisoflavone, d-ribose, the estrogenic 5-AD, and other dubious stuff.]
     
  10. vicious

    vicious New Member

    Cod liver oil is indeed a good source. :)

    I take Udo's too, but only a tablespoon a day. When I take more, without adding GLA supplementation, my face dries out . . . the opposite effect of advertised effect. I contacted the company about this, but the representative couldn't find an answer. The thing is, I don't typically have dry skin. It's only when I eat "right" (and cut out non-olive vegetable oil) does my skin react this way.

    I just bought the PBL last week and will be using them tomorrow (looks like I'll finish my Zone bottle today.)

    I paid about $25 for 100 capsules. Assuming the information is correct . . . Each capsule has one 1 IU of Vitamin E, which means they took the care to not sell rancid oil. No cholesterol, so at least it *at least* has gone through molecular distillation. It reads that 5 capsules will equal 1800mg EPA with 1200mg DHA. Now, only pharmacudetical grade can give you that kind of EPA:DHA ratio.

    So, in effect, I ought to be paying about half the price for a month's supply of PBL than Zone. Until I try it, I won't know if they're telling the truth.

    I know Twinlabs is selling something with similar potency. However, that brand *does* have cholesterol in it, meaning it can't be pharmacudetical grade.

    cheers,
    Jules
     
  11. Lance

    Lance New Member

    When i put together my diet plans, since i currently (and usually) don't have any fish oils or anything, i pick all lean proteins to get my protein amount, and then i add all walnuts until i get my fat amount (~25% calories usually). Bryan allways says to try to get most of your fats from EFAs, if olive oil is your base fat source, that's not an EFA ...

    The whole fat issue allways confuses me. Just 4 grams of fish oil? Try to get all EFA's? Avoid sat? Make sure there's some sat? Lol.
     
  12. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Be careful to note, I live in a country with the predominant amount of cattle (basically every single one of them are 99.99% of the time fed grass) and our beef/dairy products contain miniscule amounts of long chain EFA's

    While commonly said, most vegetable oils are high n-6fats, specifically linoleic acid. If most of the fat within the oil has been changed to the trans configeration, it would be a solid fat rather than an oil. Trans fat are not liquid at room temperture, which is what gives them the good properties liked by food manufacturers. THe oils do contain some, but not most.

    most studies? ranges from ~250mg epa/dha to > ~7.5g per day. Depending on what they are looking at, results can be achieved at all of them. Increasing BMR (small effect) @ 1.5g, working up to helping with inflammatory conditions at teh higher scale. For secondary prevention of heart disease, ~850mg/day epa/dha works nicely as well. to say 1800 is the amount used in most studies is a bit unspecific

    because BAT is unimportant in humans
    [​IMG]


    narf

    Zort
     
  13. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    http://www.consumerlab.com/results/omega3.asp

    Whatever fish oil you buy, make sure there is no cholesterol in it. Cholesterol-free fish oil means that it has gone through the distillation process to remove PCBs and mercury. Twinlabs has cholesterol in it.

    http://www.consumerlab.com/results/omega3.asp
     
  14. Don't waste money on GLA supplements. Eat some healthy oatmeal (non-instant) instead. I take fish oil capsules and eat a bowl of oatmeal every morning. Keeps my skin on the slightly oily side and I'm 40 yrs old.

    "Furthermore, on the Zone Diet, Dr. Sears has found that the need for GLA in normal individuals falls dramatically, and even small amounts over a baseline requirement can give rise to increased AA formation. That's why he rarely recommend more than 1 to 2 mg. of GLA per day for most people. Since the standard size of borage oil capsules sold in a health food store contains 240 mg. of GLA, you would have to take a very sharp knife and cut a capsule into 240 equal pieces (good luck) to get the right dosage. A far better way to get 1 to 2 mg. per day is to simply eat a small bowl of slow cooked oatmeal (instant oatmeal will have much less GLA) in the morning. However, even this amount of GLA may be too much for many people following the Zone Diet. On the other hand, individuals with immunological conditions will need more GLA."

    Oatmeal - it's not just for carb refeeds :)
     
  15. LittleBigHorn

    LittleBigHorn New Member

    One question has been bugging me for a while, and I would like an expert opinion on it. For agrument's sake, let's say you get most of your fats from "good" sources, and a little bad fats thrown in the mix from cheese, meat etc. Will you actually notice a tangible difference in bodyfat accumulation if you were to eat good fats alone, versus eating both good and bad fats? I'm assuming not, but I have been wrong in the past on topics such as this one.
     
  16. Lance

    Lance New Member

    I'm still wondering about how Vicious said to have olive oil as your base fat supplemented with some fish oil. Seeing as olive oil is a monounsaturated fat, and isn't an EFA at all, it contradicts what Blade and Bryan and others have been saying about getting most of your fats from EFA's alone.
     
  17. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    no

    have they actually said all of the fats from efa's?? or just said 30% of fats from Efas?
     
  18. Lance

    Lance New Member

    I don't remember anyone saying a specific ratio. Only fat ratio's i've heard was to make ~25% of your total calories from fats, and then to try to make those fats mostly EFA's.
     
  19. As someone mentioned before, we get too much omega-6 and not nearly enough omega-3. Stick to about 4g omega-3 and reduce vegetable oil consumption. Olive oil, being a monounsaturated fat does not jack with your system like EFAs - it's a delicious neutral fat that helps make food really tasty. What are you gonna replace hydrogenated and/or rancid vegetable oils with? Extra virgin olive oil - which can be stored at room temp and cooked with without going rancid. I love the stuff. I'll take a tablespoon straight to go along with my protein shake - adds healthy calories and various nutrients. And fats are supposed to help with proper protein digestion. I use it along with raw egg yolks to help keep my protein-to-fat ratio approximately equal. (Egg yolks have much higher nutritional value, however most people are scared of the cholesterol. Hmmm, people have been eating less eggs (and other saturated fats) since the scare started in the 60's or 70's and yet heart disease rates have continued to soar. Hmm, 50% of heart attack victims have high cholesterol and 50% have low cholesterol.)
     

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