Rippetoe Squats

nipponbiki

New Member
Well, it took a few weeks of shipping to finally get Starting Strength, but what a gem!

I tried doing the squats according to the book last night, just starting with the bar at first.

1. I found that doing squats right after chins may not be a good idea as the pump in the biceps doesn't help with the proper arm placement for squats.

2. I found that I am not flexible enough to hold the bar as tight and proper as indicated in the book.

3. I found that my knees were not wide enough.

4. I found that I was not breathing properly, that I was not holding my breath during the rep.

5. I found that I was not incorporating the hamstring stretch.

6. Most importantly, I found that doing it this makes my whole body feel tight, secure, and stable. The movement felt much smoother, and I felt much stronger and had the load distributed over my body more evenly.

And to top it all off, I did not have bad form to begin with. I bought McRobert's books many years ago and always followed it to the letter for my form. What a difference. I can't believe the amount of detail in this book!

Being fairly short and stocky, I never felt myself a squat man, but now that I am doing it properly (or more properly until I really get the skill), I feel like I can really take off with it now!

!!FINAL NOTE AND QUESTION!!

According to this book, there is a point of going too low, so ATG in the literal sense would be bad. When everyone here says ATG, do you all really mean absolutely as low as you can go? I think I will side with Rippetoe on this one, but please post your thoughts.
 
quoting Dan from his own max-stim board

Yes deep flexion, either passive or dynamic can play havoc on cartilage (according to the studies) but most studies don't show that deep flexion is anymore dangerous than 90 degree flexion as long as the knee joint is healthy to begin with. Now on the other hand there are a couple studies that looked at recruitment and saw that anything passed 91 degree fexion did not change recruitment levels or which muscles were recruited so IF that's the case there is really no need to do deep squats. Now looking at ligamants, there is no eveidence that I saw that shows that deep flexion damages either cruciate (A or P) again as long as they are healthy to begin with. This doesn't say that if post operative ACL or PCL that deep squats are a good idea either.
 
I've only heard of isolated incidents where someone relaxed at the bottom for a second and ended up feeling a twinge in the knee joint - but most of us don't relax, we stay tight, even though we're 'sitting' on our calves, and the hamstrings are fully extended. I've literally STOPPED using knee wraps since I started going ATG. No more knee problems whatsoever, and I'm going really heavy right now.
There is a method of stopping for one second at the bottom, to make the squat sort of a 'dead' weight; this stops you from using 'bounce' to initiate the return, but I don't know if they advocate relaxing the muscles or not. I personally do not, and I don't wait a full second; I just make sure I don't bounce. Just like benching properly.
 
Interesting Quad.

Rippetoe says you should incorporate the 'bounce'. Not a bounce of the bar off the chest as with a bench press, but utilizaing the build up of kinetic energy as the muscles are stretched out, like a spring.

But he says fully stretching out causes a loss of some of that kinetic energy. So the point is to find just the right amount of stretch that produces the most spring force.
 
Depends on who's book you're reading. Another controversial BB topic I guess. I was weak in the hole, so I took on the stop method to make myself push like hell from the bottom. It also 'feels' more true to me. I could lift more weight with a bounce, yes, but I'm s#!)-heavy now!
 
Yeah, I felt the same way going to Riptoe's squats. I was trying to do olympic squats before, but couldnt quite get low enough without the lower back rounding. Now with the athletic stance that Riptoe recommends, they are no problem whatsoever and they just plain feel good too. I still dont understand the hamstring stretch though. I think I am already too flexible for it and I cannot seem to consciously create that tension. Oh well.
 
SInce I was 18, I have no right ACL. I have been doing ATG for 2 years. In these 2 years I have had not 1 single pain in my knees.

The bounce at the bottom is not really a bounce, but a sort of burst of energy at the bottom of the hole driving the bar up. If you think of it this way, you can avoid a real bounce.

If the rounding at the back is giving trouble, switch to front squats and take a wider stance.

The hamstring stretch is during the lowering part of the movement and it is counteracting, or protecting the tibia and knee from poping out forward. On the upward motion out of the hole, it is basically doing the same thing, balancing out the forces generated by the contraction of the quads.
 
I forgot to add that the rounding of the back may also be a sign of hamstrings not being properly stretched. In other words, the stretch is a result of the hamstrings being attached to the bottom of the pelvis and the back of the tibia. When you go down in the hole, the pelvis is tilted back as the hamstrings reach there tensile limit. This brings up another problem with not going all the way in the hole: The hams never get the stretch and thus never get a good workout thus limiting the effectiveness of the whole movement.
 
I have been doing squats as mark Rippetoe suggests for a few months now.  Like nipponbiki I really feel stable and comfortable doing them this way.  But I can not hold the bar as low as he recommends because of my poor shoulder flexibility.  I'm curious how may people can hold a bar the way he recommends when they squat without problems.
 
I agree with the Dr. re the tilt of the pelvis. If you always try to keep your lower back tight you will keep your pelvis tilted the right way and you should then be able to feel the tension in your hams building as you go deeper. Allowing the pelvis to roll forward slackens off the tension. Keeping the tension helps drive you out of the hole with what Rippetoe call the 'bounce'.

I've found it hard to get the bar position right. Due to a niggling injury, my left forearm hurts like hell when I try to drop the bar further down and keep everything tight. If I position the bar higher it sits on my neck if I relax my shoulders a bit and that's uncomfortable once the loads are heavy. Hopefully, this cycle my arm will improve and I'll be able to drop the bar down a bit to see how much it helps. It should certainly allow for a more upright back and stable hip drive out of the hole but I expect there will be a lot of pressure on the wrists until shoulder flexibility is developed.
 
I have had rotator cuff problems in my left shoulder for over 20 years now. And in the last 4 or 5 years I have had bad arthritis in my right wrist from an injury. I had wrist surgery a couple years ago but there isn't anything else they can do for it, and it will just keep getting worse.

So I'm fighting both of those problems trying to get the bar into the best position. I can definitely feel the difference when I am able to get the bar down where Mark recommends it. But my shoulder and wrist both hurt like hell once I rack the weight.

I guess I just need to keep working on my flexibility.
 
I have some similar problems with no easy way out. My traps are really sensitive for some reason (can't even take a hard massage) and I'm trying to tough it out without my manta ray. If I go wider with the grip, it makes up for a lack of rotation in the shoulders, but lets the traps fall a bit and the bar digs in.
The manta ray has been great, but I'm training without it so I can do squats at any gym. Are you saying that the bar sitting lower on the spine is better for staying erect?
I feel like that puts me more onto my toes that way, which is another problem. I just can't seem to figure it out. (bar position)
 
Quad, Mark recommends you set the bar just below the spine of the scapula and across your rear delts, not the up on the traps. This position should give you better leverage because the distance from hips to bar is shorter. Which in turn should require less forward lean to go deep.
 
That makes sense. Thanx. I just can't afford to buy every book that comes out.
BTW, you've been a big help all along with the downloads and all.

I'll assume that with the lower bar position, I'll need less back for the lift, (technically, of course) and put more focus on the legs.
 
I notice much less strain on the lower back when I am able to get the bar into the lower position.
 
Bulldog is right; Rippetoe recommends the "low bar" position. That's on the deltoids, not super low down the back, as I think some PLers do. I still use the high bar position, as it feels secure and comfortable to me, but maybe I'll experiment some.

It's also true that he doesn't recommend ATG. I know a guy (online from another board) who trains at Rippetoe's gym, and Mark told him that explicitly. As I recall, his issue with ATG is that most can't go ATG without rounding the lower back. Mainly, I think it's a hamstring flexibility issue...it takes a lot to do true ATG without some rounding of the very lower back.

That said, I still go as ATG as I can...completely hams on calves, and find it best for my knees. I think I have some slight rounding, but not much. I'm also squatting with a pretty narrow stance that's shoulder width at most...can't go that deep with a stance that's wider.
 
<div>
(Bulldog @ May 20 2007,21:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Quad, Mark recommends you set the bar just below the spine of the scapula and across your rear delts, not the up on the traps. This position should give you better leverage because the distance from hips to bar is shorter. Which in turn should require less forward lean to go deep.</div>
Not to be picky, but a low bar rack will necessitate MORE forward lean versus a higher on the traps rack. It's a center of gravity thing, the same reason why people are, by necessity, more upright in a front versus a back squat.

Bar on the traps = more angle at the knee, less at the hip. Bar on the posterior delts = more angle at the hips, less at the knee.
 
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(mikeynov @ May 22 2007,02:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Bulldog @ May 20 2007,21:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Quad, Mark recommends you set the bar just below the spine of the scapula and across your rear delts, not the up on the traps.  This position should give you better leverage because the distance from hips to bar is shorter.  Which in turn should require less forward lean to go deep.</div>
Not to be picky, but a low bar rack will necessitate MORE forward lean versus a higher on the traps rack.  It's a center of gravity thing, the same reason why people are, by necessity, more upright in a front versus a back squat.

Bar on the traps = more angle at the knee, less at the hip.  Bar on the posterior delts = more angle at the hips, less at the knee.</div>
correct.
 
<div>
(mikeynov @ May 22 2007,07:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Bulldog @ May 20 2007,21:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Quad, Mark recommends you set the bar just below the spine of the scapula and across your rear delts, not the up on the traps. This position should give you better leverage because the distance from hips to bar is shorter.  Which in turn should require less forward lean to go deep.</div>
Not to be picky, but a low bar rack will necessitate MORE forward lean versus a higher on the traps rack.  It's a center of gravity thing, the same reason why people are, by necessity, more upright in a front versus a back squat.

Bar on the traps = more angle at the knee, less at the hip.  Bar on the posterior delts = more angle at the hips, less at the knee.</div>
Yeah, true Mikey. I think what Rippetoe is pointing out is that coming out of the hole, when there is a tendency to lean forward more and move the centre of gravity toward the toes, it is easier to keep control of the situation with the bar down on the posterior delts as the moment of force around the hips is reduced for the same hip angle. If the spinal erectors are not up to the job then the lower back gets fatigued more quickly just trying to keep the c of g over the middle of the foot. That could lead to rounding which would exacerbate the problem.

This is exactly what used to happen to me when I had the bar high on my traps. I now find that with the bar a little lower I feel more in control coming out of the hole and it's easier to keep my c of g over the middle of my foot as I drive upwards with my hips.

I suppose that really the issue here is how strong our spinal erectors are and how well have we learnt the movement so that we stay in better control during the drive out of the bottom position of the squat.
 
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