Planning 3rd cycle, need modification help

I

imported_hotterdog

Guest
ok guys,i'm nearing the end of my 2nd HST cycle
Now planning my 3rd cycle & if
u followed through my 1st 2 cycles, u know
the exercises.

I'm planning to change my back, shoulder
exercises.

Back : Barbell rows (but I dun seem to
see much results from this)
any alternatives?

Shoulder: behind e neck press (it's getting
heavy & alridi at 120 ibs at 5 reps, so dun
wanna hurt my shoulder)

obvious alternative is front military press
but question! :

1) how to determine my 5 rep max if never
done this before?
2) my grip - shoulder width or wider like
behind the neck?

for biceps which my left forearm is giving
problems due to olympic barbell curl
I'm going to switch over to EZ bar & give
it a shot with SAME poundages from 2nd
cycle (figured I can't go any heavier without
bending backwards literally)
tounge.gif


My proposed 3rd HST cycle attached below:
need comments, thanks.
tounge.gif
 
oh forgot to add all poundages
have gone up by 10ibs again
from start to end with exception
of deadlifts only up by 5 ibs.
 
<div>
(hotterdog @ Oct. 18 2007,23:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Shoulder: behind e neck press (it's getting
heavy &amp; alridi at 120 ibs at 5 reps, so dun
wanna hurt my shoulder)

obvious alternative is front military press
but question! :

1) how to determine my 5 rep max if never
done this before?
2) my grip - shoulder width or wider like
behind the neck?

for biceps which my left forearm is giving
problems due to olympic barbell curl
I'm going to switch over to EZ bar &amp; give
it a shot with SAME poundages from 2nd
cycle (figured I can't go any heavier without
bending backwards literally)  
tounge.gif


My proposed 3rd HST cycle attached below:
need comments, thanks.  
tounge.gif
</div>
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Back : Barbell rows (but I dun seem to
see much results from this)
any alternatives?</div>


Chest supported rows are worth trying out . You will see results - no question about that , some lifters find the abdominal/torso pressure uncomfortable and give up to soon , you get used to it and the body &quot;toughens up&quot; much like a martial artist conditioning his hands. These are my #1 rowing movement with regular (standing) BB rows alternated in or used as an auxillary movement. Keep in mind that I'm a big number chasing whore , so for me to put such a premium on a movement where load is slightly reduced (compared to standing) should testify to just how much I think of these and thier results.


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Shoulder: behind e neck press (it's getting
heavy &amp; alridi at 120 ibs at 5 reps, so dun
wanna hurt my shoulder)</div>


Upright rows alternated with military (especially If CS rows are in the movements- rear delts ) would be a very intensive yet balanced delt plan.



smile.gif
 
thanks Russ. but erm

1) chest supported rows? (are they
like pindlay rows?, not sure of spelling)

2) upright rows - wat grip?
narrow grip are for traps, wider grip
are for delts, so erm...
wow.gif
 
<div>
(hotterdog @ Oct. 19 2007,19:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"></div>
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">1) chest supported rows? (are they
like pindlay rows?, not sure of spelling)</div>

If you workout at a gym , they may have a dedicated Chest supported row station . If you work out in a home gym (as I do) - Roll bar under bench , lay face down on bench , row... Chest supported rows are similar to pendlays as far as the strict 90% angle of the pull into the torso , but eliminate any possibility of cheating or even slightly &quot;adjusting&quot; angle as fatigue sets in . Also loading on lower back is taken out of the equation . I think the reason these aren't a lot more prevelant is because of the uncomfortable pressure on the front of the torso that bothers some lifters , as opposed to lack of results .
A big plus is that they are the most accurate gauge of progression as the movement can't be &quot;unconsciously adjusted&quot; as the weights go up(as so many do when performing standing BB rows) - fooling one into thinking they may be progressing more/faster than they really are in a strictly measurable sense.



<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">2) upright rows - wat grip?
narrow grip are for traps, wider grip
are for delts, so erm...
wow.gif
</div>


Uprights are going to hit your traps no matter the grip , it's true that a close grip accentuates this over side delt and that this accentuation is reversed with wider grip. For your stated goal I would use the wider grip , just outside shoulder grip would be a good place to start until you find &quot;your personal sweetspot&quot; . There is no need to lift any higher than nipple-sternum height and plenty of reasons not to (cuffs) .
 
hi Russ,

thanks again. sorry gotta ask again.
could you like view 3 of these ppl
doing pendlay rows &amp; see which is
the best form? do you actually row
to the top of your stomach or yr chest
(just below your nipples)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvWeC2dXRsA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDS2bk3vjRs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di3sVtkdQR8&amp;search=pendlay%20row

another thing i found is that poundage for pendlay
would be much much lower compared to bb rows
so how do u like gauge when to up the poundage?
u know with regards to e slow incremental that
works up to your 15s, 10s, &amp; eventually 5s?

so u saying e wider grip upright rows
will be better vs front military rows for my case?

edit: russ, i know u said chest supported rows
but it'll be hard in my gym to execute due to
limited bench &amp; peak hours so i gotta move
fast
 
Iwas suggesting uprights AND militarys as opposed to BTN press and military.


As for the rows heres a word from Pendlay himself regarding proper form.

&quot;Rows: Well, the best way to do them is to start with the bar on the floor every single rep. Your middle back will have slight bend to it. You pull the bar off the floor quickly with the arms, and by a powerful arch of your middle back. You finish by touching the bar to your upper stomach or middle stomach. At no time is there any movement of the hips or knees, no hip extension at all, all that bends is the middle back and the shoulders and elbows.

This is hard to do and you have to have good muscular control to do it, or you'll end up straightening up at the hips along with the arching of the back. But if you can master doing them this way you will get a big back. This works because the lats actually extend (arch) the middle back in addition to other functions, just like with glute-ham extensions compared to leg curls…you always get a stronger contraction when you move both the origin and insertion of a muscle, flexing it from both ends so to speak.

The bar returns to the floor after each rep. The bent row is actually best done as an explosive movement and the bar is moved fast. I have trained many people who could do this exercise with 350 or more lbs. I myself have done reps with 425, Ed Coan, who also knows how to do them properly, has done reps with over 500lbs without his back ever coming above parallel with the ground. That is stronger than Dorian Yates or Ronnie Coleman, by the way.

I did rows with Coleman once, actually, and I was far stronger than he was. He could not do more than 350lbs strictly although he could do over 500lbs by standing almost all the way up at the completion of each rep. Ed Coan is probably the strongest person on these, although one power-lifter I trained did manage 525 for a double done strictly.

Rows look at an anatomy chart. if the scapula and upper arms are held in a constant position, shortening of the lats WILL result in arching of the middle and upper back. i AM NOT saying that the lats are primarily responsible for upper back flexion... what i am saying is that they can assist in this.

i also HAVE done EMG work on various different rowing techniques... and there is not doubt that rows performed as i describe them will activate the lats more completely than done any other way i have ever seen. i have done EMG work on a large quantity of people for rows... and ive always found that these kind of rows activate the lats most completely. and besides, even if you dont buy the fact that they activate the lats better, hell, you can always be content with the fact that your getting an erector workout. &quot;


smile.gif
 
The following helps flesh this out a bit it is also Quoted from G. Pendlay:


&quot;1. heres a couple of pics, 2 of the starting position, 1 of the finished position. looks so simple im almost embarrassed to post them... and this kid is terrible at relaxing his upper back at the start, but you can see that he is &quot;scunching&quot; his upper back at the top, trying to arch the upper spine as much as possible, thats really the key to get as much activation as possible, making the attempt to arch your back, upper back specifically as much as possible at the top, without extending the hips. you can see that his hip angle doesnt change at all, the chest comes up becasue he is arching his back as he pulls but the hips dont extend. when you let the bar down, let the upper back relax, and if possible bend the spine a little and let the shoulders come forward, then as you pull the bar up, pull the shoulders back, arch the back, and pull with the arms all at the same time. looks simple, and really is simple to do once you do it once and see how it feels. with a guy like t his who cant bend his upper back that well, it doesnt look much different than any other row, but again, its the effort to pull tyhe shoulders back and arch the back as you pull that makes the difference, even though there will be more spinal and shoulder movement in some people than others.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/alban.v/divers/pendlay_rowsony14%20067.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/alban.v/divers/pendlay_row__sony14%20068.jpg




smile.gif
 
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