Concern regarding Bent Over Row Form

[xeno]Julios

New Member
Ok, after reading Bryan's post on the "perfect row", I was psyched to give it a shot this coming Monday, since previously, I've been doing it without priming my shoulder blades, and have noticed I'm not feeling it in my back at all, nor does the movement feel smooth or grooved.
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin....=13;t=8
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]A perfect row should go like this:
1. No motion at the hips... this is not a glutes and hammies exercise. Keep the hips at approximately 90 degrees and don't rock.
2. Begin the motion by drawing the arms back without changing the bend in the elbows. The only way to do this is to draw your shoulder blades together. If you cannot pull the bar back a few inches without bending your arms, you are not getting those scaps moving.
3. Once the scaps are drawn together, pull back
through the elbows, lifting the rib cage at the same time. Imagine you are doing a chin and try to lift that chest up as you pull the elbows back. This definitely requires motion in the thoracic spine.
4. Remember, this exercise is about squeezing the back and not about what the bar is doing. When you can't squeeze your back any harder the bar is as close to you as it needs to get. If you pull that bar to the belly as many people do and let the shoulders roll forward you are dropping that resistance right off the muscles you are trying to target.
I'm a stickler for form, partly because of the number of injuries I've seen caused by lousy form (had a few myself). The truth is, beautiful form yields beautiful results.
Then I came across this info:
http://www.paulchekseminars.com/articles.cfm?select=27
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The human body is highly intelligent and remarkably efficient. To protect itself from unwanted injury the body will naturally sequence the recruitment of muscles to provide optimal load sharing across as many muscles and joints as possible. For example, when performing a bent-over row, the body will select the appropriate motor sequence to divide the load among all the pulling muscles (1). This allows each working muscle to make its maximum contribution when most favorable with regard to optimal length/force and length/tension relationships.
An example of faulty load sharing can be witnessed in those individuals who have been taught to adduct their scapulae prior to initiating a pull with the lats and other muscles. This faulty motor sequence disrupts load sharing by first recruiting the scapular adductors, shortening them beyond the range of their optimal length/ force and length/tension relationships, which then leave the scapulohumeral musculature to perform the remainder of the work. This often leads to strain and trigger point development of the teres major, teres minor and infraspinatus muscles, or otherwise known as pattern overload (1, 2).
The athlete who regularly performs pulling exercises in the manner described above will likely have a shortening of the scapulohumeral musculature which eventually leads to faulty scapulothoracic rhythm. The result is scapulae that rotate prematurely during all pulling or abduction movements. Over time, this results in stretch weakness of the middle and lower trapezius, and rhomboid musculature. Individuals with this type of dysfunction will present themselves clinically as experiencing pain between the shoulder blades and often demonstrate reduced range of motion in shoulder abduction, internal rotation and shoulder flexion.
Through careful observation while training in the gym, you will notice that athletes fitting the movement pattern described above chop their pulling movements into segments. The pull is usually initiated rapidly, favoring use of the now lengthened scapular adductor muscles. The pulling motion is terminated after 60 - 70% of the normal pulling range because the optimal working range of the short/strong scapulohumeral muscles and now lengthened scapular adductors has been reached; the scapular adductors are not weak, per say, they are just strong at the wrong time.
This pattern of overload, and many others can be seen during many exercises commonly performed in the gym. Although it may take a skilled therapist or corrective exercise specialist to identify many of them, it is safe to assume that your average gym rat or pocket calculator physical therapist with a wild new idea about how to perform an exercise is not going to improve upon "Mother Nature." It has taken millions of years of natural development in the central nervous system (CNS) and peripheral nervous system to develop recruitment patterns that provide optimal load sharing. To test my theory, I consulted some of the oldest known experts on pulling, climbing and exercise (Figure 1). They told me, "if the body works, don't try to fix it!"
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Figure1_po.jpg
Anyone have any resolution for this? Assuming the article is correct, the only way I can think of doing the motion properly would be to train myself to "adduct the scapula" as a gradual and proportional part of the movement, which would solve the length/tension ratio problem referred to.
 
i'm skeptical about paul check in a very general sort of way after his interaction with supertraining.

regardless, my own take on rows is to perform them with reasonable quality. i am a fan of letting my body figure out its own biomechanics to a degree (and within safety) so long as the movement itself is controlled and feels 'right.' i also think barbell rows, while they have the capacity to screw you up if done really really sloppily, do not carry the risk of other more technical lifts like the squat or deadlift.
 
Hiya, julios, and welcome!

Please note that the first quote is actually my description of how to do a seated row, although admittedly the motions are very similar.

I teach rowing this way for precisely the reason you have noted... without sufficient scapular motion this becomes an arm exercise rather than one for the back.

Expecting a body to understand this motion by handing it some resistance and telling it to row hasn't worked very well for me...
laugh.gif


I teach people to intiate the motion with the scap because most people don't have a clue how to get those shoulder blades moving properly. At first this does have the appearance of a two part exercise... scapular retraction, followed by a drawing back of the elbows. After the motion is learned and understood is the time to allow the body to smooth out the motion and fine tune the timing.

I doubt if anyone at this board has more faith in the innate intelligence of the human body than I. Unfortunately, for most of us the body never gets to voice this wisdom... something is always trying to over-ride it... learned but improper movement patterns, postural problems, injuries and scar tissue, and mental opinions about the best way to do things can all get in the way of proper form.

Please note too that Mr. Chek is referring to people who have been taught to retract scaps before initiating a rowing motion, whereas I am recommending initiating the motion with scapular retraction. In other words, what he is describing is someone who pulls those shoulders back and keeps those scaps locked back throughout the set. So maybe we aren't comparing apples with apples here...

Kate
 
cheers mikeynov & kate - appreciate the replies:

So you retract the scaps for each rep then. That seems to make much more sense - thanks for the clarification :)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Please note too that Mr. Chek is referring to people who have been taught to retract scaps before initiating a rowing motion, whereas I am recommending initiating the motion with scapular retraction. In other words, what he is describing is someone who pulls those shoulders back and keeps those scaps locked back throughout the set. So maybe we aren't comparing apples with apples here...

Thanks for clearing that up Kate. I pull instinctually but do find that there's a lot of trap involvement. Inevitably my back is the sore and fatigued muscle group, not my arms. Where I was confused was that I interpretted what some were saying as instruction to lock the scapulae, which is what I used to do.

-Calkid
 
Bump

Hi, newbie here...a couple basic questions on this movement:
1) Should we raise the bb to the belly button or sternum - I imagine this depends on the grip, right?
2) How bent over should we be - I've seen people do it at a 45 degree angle and others' torsos almost parallel to the floor - which is correct?

Thanks for any forthcoming help! :)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (schtang @ Aug. 12 2003,11:34)]Bump
Hi, newbie here...a couple basic questions on this movement:
1) Should we raise the bb to the belly button or sternum - I imagine this depends on the grip, right?
Depends :D
I usually go to the belly, higher up brings in traps more etc

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]2) How bent over should we be - I've seen people do it at a 45 degree angle and others' torsos almost parallel to the floor - which is correct?
I prefer going by feel. Being over too far increases the loading on the lower spine, if yours is fine, then it wont matter. But it doesnt feel good if you have a prior injury.
I go at around 45deg angle, and pull the weight back to the stomach thru a circular motion.
 
The heavier I go, the more my bent over row resembles that of Dorian Yates. He opted for a 70 degree angle, letting the shoulders hang and pulling with the lats as much as possible, bringing the bar to the belly button or just below it.
 
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