Big Vs. Small Leaps

[wisslewj]

Having worked out mathmatically the need for ascending volume (like 1x15, 2x10, 5x5) ranges in order to achieve the primary principle of HST (that being progressive load), I have one last question.

Are big jumps in weight but massive overlap or small jumps but very little overlap better? Both achieve almost the exact load, so the issue is one of weight. And this matters doesnt it? For example:

15's-170,160,150,140,130,120
10's-185,175,165,155,145,135

IN 10 pound (hence larger) incraments the overlap is HUGE. In fact, at the start of 10's, it will take FOUR workouts before you are even above what you ended at in 15's!!

The alternative being smaller incraments like so:

15's-170,165,160,155,150,145
10's-185,180,175,170,165,160

This, while still having overlap, is less and weight begins rising again sooner.

My question is, which is better? Smaller incraments does actually have a slighly higher load and it also uses heavier weights longer. Big has a larger jump, but the weight stays really low much longer before it finally comes up again.

I equate the big leaps at first to spending time lifting a 1 lbs plate 1000 times. It wont do much for ya. But lift 200 lbs 5 times and you will grow. The big leaps seems like they spend so much time below your pevious maxes that they wouldnt work. But I am not sure.

Is there any science addressing this or experience from you guys. Maybe this was addressed and I just didnt see it? I have read that people like bigger jumps, but never saw the issue assressed from my question.

Thanks again,
Jeff

 

[Totentanz]

<div>
(wisslewj @ Mar. 06 2008,22:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Having worked out mathmatically the need for ascending volume (like 1x15, 2x10, 5x5) ranges in order to achieve the primary principle of HST (that being progressive load), I have one last question.</div>
No... like I said before, we are talking about increasing the load used over time, not increasing the volume. If you read the FAQs, it even states that zig-zag is actually a good idea. It does not violate the principle of progressive load. As long as you progress the load over the course of your cycle, you will be fine.

And really, do you need to start eighteen different threads each day about various questions that could all be contained in one post?

 

[wisslewj]

Tot,

they were different questions so I assumed different topic header was better. Sorry if I over posted.

Could you define load for me because I I understood it when I read it, it is defined as:

Load = weight x set x reps
Volume = total reps used (sets x reps)

Perhaps I am misunderstanding and if so, please correct me!

Thanks
Jeff

PS: zigzag doesnt violate load by the way, as I understand it, so long as Volume (sets x reps) increases each phase. This question was more concerned with just how much zig zag is acceptable. Thanks again.

 

[Lol]

Jeff,

Load just refers to the weight you are using.
Volume refers to the load x total reps, not just the total reps.

Some people refer to volume as if it is just about total reps but they are usually referring to a specific load in this case.

You can see that it is possible for volume to increase even if total reps decrease - as long as the load is increasing enough. If you aim to keep the rep count about the same over a cycle then you know that the volume (and therefore work done) will be increasing.

As far as working out load progressions for each mesocycle goes, just start with a load that is around 75% of your RM for that mesocycle. Then work up to your RM in 5% increments. No need to be exact. To make it easy to put weight on the bar I'll add a bit more rather than take some off if need be.

Zig-zag is a good way to decrease fatigue build up over a cycle. Some folks like it and some don't. In the grand scheme of things it isn't going to make a great deal of difference to your cycle except that might find you can stay with the heavier loads at the end of a cycle a bit longer if you have included some z-z along the way. In other words, z-z might help you extend your cycle a bit longer.

 

[wisslewj]

lol

thanks. wow did i have it misunderstood!

so the principle of progressive load just means use heavier weight!

ok so one can do 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 and still be increasing LOAD, its VOLUME that decreases temporarily as I believe Tot and Quad were getting at.

This also helps me understand why some do 15, 12, 10, 8 etc. This way they are pushing the muscle right to the limit before failure and maxing the hypertrophic potential? (I think the lil light bulb is finally on lol!)

With that then let me ask this last question.

How much zigzag is ok? Would I be better off doing say 170, 170, 155 155, 140, 140 for 15's and 185, 185, 170, 170, 155, 155 for 10's or some variation of doubles, so that I can make big additions to weight vs smaller incraments. (I saw this in a post.)

Even though I have 2 workouts the same, the big jumps are better since it takes a few workouts to adapt anyway right? Assuming I have this right I think I am good to go!

Thanks alot. I will be starting Monday! (I am itching to get moving on this!)

Thanks again
Jeff

 

[colby2152]

If you read the HST faq's, you will find that larger jumps in the load or progression induces more hypertrophy. Basically, you are giving more power to the mechanism that holds off the repeated bout effect.

 

[quadancer]

Wiss, I understand your confusion(s). We often interplay the word 'load' to mean weight and then use it to mean workload. Shame on us.

Another misnomer is rules and regimentation.
Whatever works for you is good for a while until it stalls out, as it WILL. (this could take even a year) This is why some of us alternate strength programs like 5x5 with HST.
Grow and get stronger. Get much stronger. Grow some more.
If you are beyond your mid 15's and feel &quot;refreshed&quot; after a workout, you are probably working too light. The idea is to WORK out, not go dancing. All other training beyond the 15's really should leave you panting somewhat. BUT, I'd think if your increments were large and you have a big zigzag, your initial sets in each new rep schemes (mesocycle) would be fairly easy, you see?

 

[wisslewj]

Colby,

I read the FAQ and about a million other threads before posting.

I know it says big jumps are better, but is that still true when the overlap becomes so large? If I end 15's at 170 lbs and then start 10's back at 135 (assuming 10 pound incraments)...that just seems really dumb to me. (But I could be way off!) I would actually DECREASE the progressive load for 3 workouts, or 1 whole week.

Is that how its supposed to go? Wouldnt smaller incraments but at least a semi more consistant load increase work better? At least that way you wouldnt go backwards for load for 3 workouts.

Quad,

Yeah after reading a handful of posts, I was wondering what the heck load and volume were. (I thought I knew from traditional workouts, and they do turn out to be the same, but some posts through me lol.)

I should have just asked what LOAD meant and saved you guys the hassle from the start!

I see what you are saying very well. Thats my difficulty with big jumps, the new meso cycle is far too easy. I was thinking maybe this could be remedied by just doing more reps? It still goes a bit contrary to near steady progressive load, but at least you are making up the work. I was thinking like this:

week 1-2--> 1x15-20
week 3-4--> 2x10-15
week 4-5--> 3x5-10

This way when one gets to the new mesocycle and the weight is too light, a few extra reps will still make it a workout (whilest avoiding failure). And the reps then taper as you near the maxes.

I think this is similar to what the folks doing 15, 12, 10, 8, 6 etc are achieving correct?

I just came off of a strength workout that was very effective so I am hoping I can now do some more growing!

And Quad...good thing I am trying to workout, cuz if you saw me try and dance...well lets just say I have seen prettier train wrecks!

Thanks again for the help. I do believe I have it!

Jeff