Compound Exercises vs. Isolation

[GiNormousMonstertobe]

I am fairly new to lifting weights, about 6 months. It seems to be universally accepted that compound exercises are superior to isolation exercises for building mass. I take this to mean, even if all of the muscles worked in the compound movement are worked separately with isolation movements, you are still better with just the compound movement alone.

Are there studies or evidence for this someone could point me to ?

Is the difference in benefit quantified in any experiments ?

Thanks to anyone who can help.

GiNorm

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] ]I take this to mean, even if all of the muscles worked in the compound movement are worked separately with isolation movements, you are still better with just the compound movement alone.

For the sake of time yes, for hypertrophy, not necessarily.

 

[GiNormousMonstertobe]

Hypertrophy is what I am after.

What would I lose in terms of muscle gain by substituting machine squats or leg press and a separate low back exercise for squats ?

I believe squats are agravating my knees. Due to my flexibility(or lack of), in order to keep my knees behind my feet I must use more lower back than most. Because of this I am not sure how heavy I will be able to go with squats.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Here's the deal, compounds provide a way to efficiently load multiple muscles, because you are using more muscle the load can be heavier than using just one muscle. So compounds are the most efficient use of your time.

It's not necessary to squat, you can build the quads with leg press and or leg extensions or a slew of other exercises, it just comes down to time required in the gym when working everything seperatley. If you choose not to squat or dead lift then I would look into O&G's core exercise routine he has posted. This would help ensure your core muscle for posture and stability are still being worked and keep pace.

 

[GiNormousMonstertobe]

dkm,

That is excellent news for me. I am going to experiment a little more but fear I will have to give up these 2 exercises.

I read many statements like this one

"When compared to isolation exercises, compound movements that involve larger muscle groups elicit a hormonal training response that results in greater strength gains" from http://www.protraineronline.com/past/nov15/deadlift.cfm

I have never seen explained what the "hormonal training response" is or how they know this.

Any idea where these statements comes from ?

Thanks for the reply.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (GiNormousMonstertobe @ May 23 2005,7:02)]I have never seen explained what the "hormonal training response" is or how they know this.  

Any idea where these statements comes from ?

There have been a slew of studies on the hormonal response from weight training (resistance exercise). They have looked at everything from Testosterone, Growth Hormones, Binding Proteins, Cortisol, Insulin, and you name it. The real importance of this is there is an impact either locally or systemically to about any form of exercise. Some of the response is favorable, some isn't.

Suffice it to say that with the proper training, avoiding excess fatique and proper nutrition you will be creating a favorable hormonal response.

The impact of a total isolation routine would affect certain hormones but this can be managed with appropriate fatique management. Overall I wouldn't worry much about it, but one last note, just from my point of view and others may disagree; Compounds are the most efficient use of weight and time and therefore should be the core of any exercise routine. JMHO

 

[Dood]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ May 24 2005,8:27)]Compounds are the most efficient use of weight and time and therefore should be the core of any exercise routine. JMHO

Generally I agree but I would point out two things.
1. Sometimes they just aren't possible or effective, due to injury or physiology. Especially squats, some people seem to have weak biomechanics for that motion.

2. I consider something like a leg press and machine squat to be a compound exercise, you are still using a large group of muscles at once. They certainly aren't isolation movements such as leg extension or preacher curl etc.

 

[Chthonian]

"weak biomechanics"? No. People just need to practice the form and increase their flexibility, so they can correctly perform the movement. It's one of the most natural movements for the human body, and full, @$$-to-floor, freeweight squatting is probably the best exercise you can do, coupled with deadlifts. Of course, we're not going to get in to olympic lifts. Those are in a league of their own.

As for your second point, machine squats may be compound, if by 'compound' you mean an exercise that targets multiple muscle groups at once. However, leg presses and machine squats are far inferior to full, ATF olympic style squats. Build up a deal of strength on machine squats. That strength will certainly not carry over to freeweighted squats, and you will wind up hurting yourself.

Compound exercises are the best choice, not only for time management, but for overall functionality and aesthetics as well. You tell me what's going to build more mass - a big squat, or a big 'leg extension'?

Besides, that movement is no good, unless you need it for some form of rehab with extremely light loads.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

To define compound for those who are confused here. A compound movement is one that involves more than one joint. So yes machine squats, leg press, leverage squats, and safety squats are all compound.

Quote[/b] ]Besides, that movement is no good, unless you need it for some form of rehab with extremely light loads.

Any movement that you can use progressive tension with will grow muscle.

 

[ttboyy2k]

Why should a person do heavy isolation movements with a mechanical load if they are using the core compound lifts in their routines? During the compound lifts, the smaller muscle groups are being exposed to heavier loads than one could perform with isolation movements. Wouldn't it be ideal for hypertrophy if the person just focused on moving the heavy mechanical load during the core compound lifts. Then immediately following the last work set for each compound lift, start metabolic work (pulses/dropsets). Finally, if you have any energy left finish off with metabolic work for the smaller muscle groups that was utilized during that particular compound lift. For example, 5rm max bench set, followed by pulses with same weight, then a dropset, then hit the triceps with a pushdown burn set.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (ttboyy2k @ May 31 2005,10:01)]Wouldn't it be ideal for hypertrophy if the person just focused on moving the heavy mechanical load during the core compound lifts. Then immediately following the last work set for each  compound lift, start metabolic work (pulses/dropsets).

Finally, if you have any energy left finish off with metabolic work for the smaller muscle groups that was utilized during that particular compound lift. For example, 5rm max bench set, followed by pulses with same weight, then a dropset, then hit the triceps with a pushdown burn set.

I definately agree.

I am a firm believer in metabolic work also, I personal don't go to the extreme in your example though. I just do a simple high rep set to get a burn going after the work set for the exercises I can get a good burn with. But to each his own.

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]Why should a person do heavy isolation movements with a mechanical load if they are using the core compound lifts in their routines? During the compound lifts, the smaller muscle groups are being exposed to heavier loads than one could perform with isolation movements. Wouldn't it be ideal for hypertrophy if the person just focused on moving the heavy mechanical load during the core compound lifts

With respective to heavier vs. lighter weight, it's not directly applicable because we're talking about one body part vs. many. The key advantage to compound movement over isolation is that you have a much finer gradient of progressive load that can be indirectly applied to the muscle. In other words, it's easier to do progressive steps of military press during each session of HST than, say, lateral raises.

Also, about 75% of isolation movements people use -- pushdowns/kickbacks, normal flies/pec-dec, normal barbell curls, normal lateral raises, and so on -- only offers marginal value (if that) over their matching compound movement. The reasons are usually two-fold. The isolation movement doesn't work the muscle over anymore stretched ROM. Plus, with the notable exception of pulling/rowing compound movements (pullovers and DKM's lat press are legitimately superior excercises for lats than the chin/pulldown), the weak links of said isolation movement and matching compound movement are at the stretched portion of the muscle anyway. They are, however, excellent at generating metabolic stress.

The exceptions to the above are what are what the Position Of Flexion system calls the stretch-point movements. These do accelerate development by increasing the overall strain per relative maximal load. They work the muscle beyond the stretched ROM of the compound movements. These are your skullcrushers/overhead extensions, incline bench bicep curls, superlow DB flies, barbell pullovers, lateral raises across the body, and so on. BUT, they come with the caveat of limited choices with loads. Thus, you should schedule them later in your workout plan, and you may have to use various cheating or compound-iso techniques to get yourself a few extra increments.

From a pragmatic standpoint, your routine should be built around compound movements, and you should be looking at ways to safely increase strain with your compound movements through the post-5s. It's just easier that way. But you can use the stretch-point isolation movements to palpably speed up areas, understanding that they require more thought to implement.

As for metabolc work, because you're training 3x-a-week, a little bit does go a long way. The 15s set is a nice way to bring things up with little risk and headache to your program. And the pulses help bring things up further without wasting your time, albeit at higher risk. Remember to increase post-WO carbs if doing anything extra for metabolic work.

cheers,
Jules